garyb@hcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com (Gary Barton) (01/18/91)
From: garyb@hcx1.ssd.csd.harris.com (Gary Barton) Watching the news last night, I became was fascinated by so called "experts" comments on the accuracy of the Tomahawk cruise missle. Some supplied statistics such as CEP radius, range, speed, etc. However, this only wet my appetite for more information. Some questions to those in the know: 1) What is the effective payload of the missle at strike distances of several hundred miles? What types of payloads can these things deliver? 2) Their guidance systems are reportedly visually keyed using a complicated mission planning system to identify the landmarks along the intended flight path, and evetually the target itself. Where does the information used to program these flight paths come from? I would expect that most satellite images would be two dimensional in nature and would not be terribly suitable for programming of this sort weapon by themselves. However, if these images were bound to some sort of elevation/contour map of sufficient resolution, I would expect we could generate a reasonable mission preview. Is U.S. satellite technology so good that we can construct a 3-d image of the mission plan with resolutions to a few feet, and do so fast enough to make these weapons useful in a changing battlefield, or am I totally off base as to how this system works. 3) Do the Iraqi's (for matter any nation) have defenses capable of stopping an inbound cruise missle. I recall a discussion of the navy cruise missle defnse systems, but I speaking about land based defenses. It appears that the speed of these things is not so fast that traditional SAMs and other antiaircraft defense might stand a chance against them (even though they are a much smaller target than say and F-15). Are these missles equipped with any SAM countermeasures (eg chaff, flares, ECM, etc) ? -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | Gary Barton | System Software Development | | Lead Engineer | Harris Computer Systems Division | | garyb@hcx1.csd.ssd.harris.com | 2101 W. Cypress Creek Rd. | | gbarton@ssd.harris.com | Ft. Lauderdale. FL 33309 | | uunet!hcx1!garyb | (305) 974-1700 | +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder) (01/19/91)
From: eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder) On a related note, who makes the INS for the Tomahawk? NPR reported that the cruise missles had both terrain following radar and inertial systems. I know Litton and Delco make commercial systems for aircraft and are subject to "sensitive technology" export restrictions. Are the same types of systems used? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- TTGATTGCTAAACACTGGGCGGCGAATCAGGGTTGGGATCTGAACAAAGACGGTCAGATTCAGTTCGTACTGCTG Eric E. Snyder Department of MCD Biology We are not suspicious enough University of Colorado, Boulder of words, and calamity strikes. Boulder, Colorado 80309-0347 LeuIleAlaLysHisTrpAlaAlaAsnGlnGlyTrpAspLeuAsnLysAspGlyGlnIleGlnPheValLeuLeu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
klb@pegasus.att.com (Kevin Blatter) (01/19/91)
From: klb@pegasus.att.com (Kevin Blatter) (Gary Barton) writes: > > 2) Their guidance systems are reportedly visually keyed using a > complicated mission planning system to identify the landmarks along > the intended flight path, and evetually the target itself. Where does > the information used to program these flight paths come from? I would > expect that most satellite images would be two dimensional in nature > and would not be terribly suitable for programming of this sort weapon > by themselves. However, if these images were bound to some sort of > elevation/contour map of sufficient resolution, I would expect we > could generate a reasonable mission preview. Is U.S. satellite > technology so good that we can construct a 3-d image of the mission > plan with resolutions to a few feet, and do so fast enough to make > these weapons useful in a changing battlefield, or am I totally off > base as to how this system works. I'm not a military expert by any means, but having contoured maps would be very simple. I have a friend, who reads this newsgroup (hi dale), that worked in Algeria for a couple of years with a petroleum survey team. From what he has told me, the were able to produce excellent topographical maps of the Sahara for oil exploration. Undoubtedly the same thing has been done in most (all?) of the middle-east by petroleum exploration companies. I would think that the CIA, NSA or whoever keeps track of such things has digitized maps of every inch of Iraq. Kevin L. Blatter AT&T - Bell Labs "I don't think anyone understands Saddam Hussein!" - Tom Brokaw
jb7m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon C. R. Bennett) (01/19/91)
From: "Jon C. R. Bennett" <jb7m+@andrew.cmu.edu> > Watching the news last night, I became was fascinated by so called > "experts" comments on the accuracy of the Tomahawk cruise missle. > Some supplied statistics such as CEP radius, range, speed, etc. > However, this only wet my appetite for more information. > > Some questions to those in the know: > > 1) What is the effective payload of the missle at strike distances of > several hundred miles? What types of payloads can these things deliver? They have a payload of several hundred pounds, which i do not belive is variable based on range. And can be armed with HE warheads, cluster submunitions, tactial nukes, and anti ship warheads. > 2) Their guidance systems are reportedly visually keyed using a > complicated mission planning system to identify the landmarks along > the intended flight path, and evetually the target itself. Where does > the information used to program these flight paths come from? I would > expect that most satellite images would be two dimensional in nature > and would not be terribly suitable for programming of this sort weapon > by themselves. However, if these images were bound to some sort of > elevation/contour map of sufficient resolution, I would expect we > could generate a reasonable mission preview. Is U.S. satellite > technology so good that we can construct a 3-d image of the mission > plan with resolutions to a few feet, It is quite possible to build a 3D map from 2D data, the opening credits to CNN's "Technology Today" which is view flying over a 3D terain (San Fransico Bay) was created from 2D Landsat data by having a computer compare the shadows cast by the sun at different times of the day. It is also possible to get 3D data directly using radar equiped satalites, which are reported to have very good resolution (measured in feet or less). > and do so fast enough to make > these weapons useful in a changing battlefield, or am I totally off > base as to how this system works. One would assume that in the past few months most of Iraq has been mapped quite well, since execpt for the desert regions (of which Iraq is not mostly composed of) the land does not move on a day to day basis, the US for instance has complete maps of the Soviet Union, for just this reason. So it should be possible to target anything in Iraq with cruise missles at basicly a moments notice jon
graper@BRL.MIL (MTSD/FIO) (01/19/91)
From: Graper Brad P (MTSD/FIO) <graper@BRL.MIL> Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles (I believe that is the designation) are hard to hit with SAMs mainly because they are small compared to an aircraft. They also tend to fly prety low, whikch in combination with their small size and the speed they're moving make the intercept difficult. The small size means they won't be acquired until they are prettty close, and then the altitude and speed will make the intercept window very short. They don't need chaff or flares. They will usually be programmed to fly a course designed to make it difficult for known SAM sites to hit them. I can't tell you how we get the digitized terrain maps which are fed into the TLAM's computer. It's pretty neat, though, huh? Peace through superior firepower.
IO00672%MAINE.BITNET@VM1.gatech.edu (Sloth) (01/24/91)
From: Sloth <IO00672%MAINE.BITNET@VM1.gatech.edu> Jon C. R. Bennett writes: >It is quite possible to build a 3D map from 2D data, the opening credits >to CNN's "Technology Today" which is view flying over a 3D terain (San >Fransico Bay) was created from 2D Landsat data by having a computer >compare the shadows cast by the sun at different times of the day. It is >also possible to get 3D data directly using radar equiped satalites, which >are reported to have very good resolution (measured in feet or less). The Landsat satellites run in a sun-synchronous orbit. That is, the orbital plane is such that it precesses across the Earth at the same rate as the Earth's rotation. Thus, no matter where the images are taken, they all are taken at the same local time (nominally 9.30a) and have the same "sun angle." This is necessary so that different images of the same area are consistant in their lighting. Otherwise, change detection (comparison of an area over time) would be very difficult if not impossible. I'd suspect that if CNN's graphics used Landsat imagery, it would have been created by integrating a Landsat image with a digital elevation model of the same area. ]:-)> ---> Malcolm Fuller Email: IO00672@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Surveying Engineering Department MALCOLMF@MECAN1.BITNET University of Maine Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietam Servitutem
aanerud@SRC.Honeywell.COM (Tim Aanerud) (01/25/91)
From: aanerud@SRC.Honeywell.COM (Tim Aanerud) >From: eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder) >On a related note, who makes the INS for the Tomahawk? NPR reported >that the cruise missles had both terrain following radar and inertial >systems. Honeywell's Military Avionics Division produces the ring laser gyro based inertial system for the Tomahawk cruise missle. They also produce the radar altimeter. The inertial system will get the missle in the general area. >I know Litton and Delco make commercial systems for aircraft >and are subject to "sensitive technology" export restrictions. Are >the same types of systems used? Honeywell's Commercial inertial systems are also subject to export restrictions. The State Department must approve any foreign sales. "Yankee Flying Club ... a real | Timothy Aanerud member owned club ..." Al Peterman | Honeywell Commercial Flight Systems | Makers of Laser Gyro IRU's N45.07.9 W93.16.6 | tima@cfsmo.honeywell.com
klewis@mwunix.mitre.org (Keith Lewis) (01/25/91)
From: klewis@mwunix.mitre.org (Keith Lewis) In article <1991Jan24.033445.19610@cbnews.att.com> IO00672%MAINE.BITNET@VM1.gatech.edu (Sloth) writes: >Jon C. R. Bennett writes: ... >>Fransico Bay) was created from 2D Landsat data by having a computer >>compare the shadows cast by the sun at different times of the day. It is ... >The Landsat satellites run in a sun-synchronous orbit. That is, the >orbital plane is such that it precesses across the Earth at the same >rate as the Earth's rotation. Thus, no matter where the images are taken, >they all are taken at the same local time (nominally 9.30a) and have the >same "sun angle." You could make it so that the satellite passes over the same area at the same time every day, but that will only stabilize the longitudinal componant of "sun angle." The latitudinal componant will still vary with the seasons. In other words, you only get repeats twice a year. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Keith Lewis klewis@mwunix.mitre.org, klewis@mitre.org cyclist-hitchhiker: "Look! The tomatoes are ejecting!" driver: "It works! It works! It w-"