wilkinson@PICA.ARMY.MIL (CCL-C) (02/07/91)
From: Peter Wilkinson (CCL-C) <wilkinson@PICA.ARMY.MIL> A recent enquiry concerning the survival rate of pilots in modern air combat prompted me to have another look at "Air War South Atlantic" by J. Ethell and A. Price. In 1985, the authors conducted a two day seminar here, titled "A Critique of the Falklands War". It was excellent food for thought and I highly recommend it to any groups who can entice them to repeat the performance. The book served as the basis for the lectures, and in perusing the appendices, I gleaned the following data on losses from both sides: Shot down by: Missiles Guns |----------------------------------- Ejected | 14 7 | Killed | 21 7* * Includes at least two Argentinian "own goals". "Missiles" includes Sidewinder(9L), Rapier, Blowpipe, Seacat, Sea Dart, Sea Wolf, & Roland. "Guns" includes 20, 30, 35, & 40mm, as well as small arms fire. These data include jets and high performance turbo-props, but NOT helicopters. From the available information, it seems that everyone who ejected managed to survive (though some were badly hurt). On another subject, someone posted the "fact" that Iraq has base-bleed artillery projectiles and can therefore out-range our guns. Well........base bleed is basically just a much cheaper way of achieving the same results as rocket assist. And since we do have HERA, I would say the reach is probably about even. One advantage we do have is the quality of the package once it gets there. Does the term DPICM mean anything to anybody out there? (Dual Purpose, Improved Conventional Munition) In a 155 this round ejects its cargo(88 little shaped charge grenades) at a predetermined height above the target, which then rain down covering an area roughly the size of a football field. NASTY! Iraq has nothing even approaching this. Then there's Copperhead, which has been discussed here recently. Too bad SADARM (Sense And Destroy ARMor) isn't ready yet. Pete
thos@softway.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) (02/09/91)
From: thos@softway.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) In article <1991Feb7.013344.1181@cbnews.att.com> wilkinson@PICA.ARMY.MIL (CCL-C) writes: > >On another subject, someone posted the "fact" that Iraq has >base-bleed artillery projectiles and can therefore out-range >our guns. >Well........base bleed is basically just a much cheaper way >of achieving the same results as rocket assist. And since we Not at all! Base bleed simply cancels out the base drag by burning a low grade propellant and allowing the gas to occupy the area of low pressure behind the shell's blunt end. This area of low pressure causes drag (and probably turbulence). So the projectile is aerodynamically shaped at both ends, but no extra propulsion has been added. Rocket propelled/assisted shells have more propulsion than the normal shell, and a greatly longer range. They also have a greatly reduced accuracy, even if (as is usual) the rockets give some form of spin to the shell. The accuracy of base bleed shells is not diminished, in fact if anything, it's probably increased from the loss of drag and (probably) turbulence. Of course, since the shell is travelling further, it is more likely to be affected by wind etc over its trajectory. >Iraq has nothing even approaching this. But do you/we have any divisional arty which can shoot to the ranges of the South African designed 155mm? (~45km, or thereabouts) Wasn't Dr G Bull involved with the development of these field pieces? And is the phenomenal range (for the calibre) due to the propellant, the charge, the projectile or the gun? -- thos cohen |Softway Pty Ltd "Stopping to pick up passengers would disrupt |ACSnet: thos@softway.oz the timetable" - Alderman Cholerton, on why|UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos the council's buses didn't stop for passengers|Internet: thos@softway.oz.au
joel@uunet.UU.NET (Joel Upchurch) (02/12/91)
From: mailrus!uflorida!peora.sdc.ccur.com!ucf-cs!joel@uunet.UU.NET (Joel Upchurch) > On another subject, someone posted the "fact" that Iraq has > base-bleed artillery projectiles and can therefore out-range > our guns. > Well........base bleed is basically just a much cheaper way > of achieving the same results as rocket assist. And since we > do have HERA, I would say the reach is probably about even. The stats in front of me say: South African G5 155mm gun with base bleed projectile --- 37km USA M198 155mm gun with rocket assisted projectile --- 30km -- Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809 joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982