lrb@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Larry Bruns) (02/09/91)
From: lrb@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Larry Bruns) Planes downed: 33 to 0 That is the Coalition-to-Iraqi score so far in Air-to-Air combat kills. The USSR must be getting embarrassed! 1) Am I correct in assuming that the USSR-built Iraqi planes are flown by pilots who were trained in the USSR by the same trainers who train the USSR Air Force pilots? 2) How many of those 33 were "top-of-the-line" USSR aircraft? 3) Who trained the Iraqi Mirage pilots - French or USSR trainers? 4) I know at least 2 of the 33 were shot down by a Saudi pilot. How many others of the 33 are credited to non-US pilots? Larry Bruns
larmo@pro-odyssey.cts.com (System Administrator) (02/12/91)
From: larmo@pro-odyssey.cts.com (System Administrator) In-Reply-To: message from lrb@hpfcso.fc.hp.com Most of the Kills from air to air were unchallenged attacks. The U.S. Air Force has yet to meet the aircraft they were designed to fight against. I believe only one Mig 29 has been shot down and I think that was by a F-14 all the rest of Iraqs 29's have fled or remain hidden on the ground. Most of the pilots I believe were trained by soviet advisors in Iraq. You cannot train courage though. Or maybe there smatter than we give them credit for. ---- ---- ---- ---- ProLine: larmo@pro-odyssey AOL: ODYSSEY 1 Internet: larmo@pro-odyssey.cts.com Pro-Odyssey: 707/437-4734 ARPA: crash!pro-odyssey!larmo@nosc.mil UUCP: crash!pro-odyssey!larmo
jtchew@csa2.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) (02/12/91)
From: jtchew@csa2.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) >Planes downed: 33 to 0 >That is the Coalition-to-Iraqi score so far in Air-to-Air combat kills. >The USSR must be getting embarrassed! Hmm... Not to denigrate the Coalition pilots, but embarrassment depends on the details. Judging from news reports, some fraction of the 33 kills have been scored on Iraqi planes going hell-for-leather towards the Iranian border and not even trying to engage. This may be "poultry in motion," but if it's true that 120+ Iraqi planes have fled to Iran, I'm inclined to give 'em the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're under orders to do this. --Joe "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
mmitchel@msd.gatech.edu (Mark A. Mitchell) (02/13/91)
From: mmitchel@msd.gatech.edu (Mark A. Mitchell) larmo@pro-odyssey.cts.com (System Administrator) wrote: } } The U.S. Air }Force has yet to meet the aircraft they were designed to fight against. I }believe only one Mig 29 has been shot down ... Really? I've heard numbers as high as 8 for the number of MiG-29's downed. [Source: CNN] Does anyone have reliable information on the make-up of the 33 (or more, by now) air-to-air kills? -- "If you do something right the first time | Mark A. Mitchell Georgia Tech no one will realize how difficult it was."| mmitchel@msd.gatech.edu
eachus@aries.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) (02/14/91)
From: eachus@aries.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus)
The main problem faced by the Iraqi pilots is probably that they
were trained in the Soviet style of air-to-air fighting, which is
primarily ground controlled. I am sure that the highest priority
targets during the initial attack were these ground control
facilities, so any pilots that did get up were immediately cut off
from supervision.
Since the initial attacks were at night, any Iraqi pilots who
wished to engage allied pilots had no way of knowing if they were
attempting an "own goal," so my guess is that only the less prudent
and inexperienced pilots attempted to engage allied planes the first
night, the rest fleeing to northern Iraq.
Having said all that, the 33-0, or whatever it is now, ratio
should have the Soviets very worried. Even if the main advantage we
enjoy is due to a more effective strategy, it is far easier to fix a
hardware problem than to design a new strategy and retrain all of your
personnel--even if the new strategy requires no new equipment.
Remember the story from the Top Gun school where instructors getting
waxed in F-5's added Fuzzbusters to give themselves a radar warning
capability? Since the pilots knew HOW to use radar warnings, the
hardware fix could be used the next day.
Note that a lot of the equipment flying in the Gulf was designed
and built specifically to implement the American battle plan. The
F-117A, for example, would be of little use to the Soviets under their
current doctrine, but was a key part of the American plan.
Robert I. Eachus
Our troops will have the best possible support in the entire
world. And they will not be asked to fight with one hand tied behind
their back. President George Bush, January 16, 1991