ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (11/03/90)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> I read or heard somewhere that US Forces in the Middle East were receiving innoculations for Anthrax. Can anybody confirm this? Allan
HANK@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) (02/04/91)
From: Hank Nussbacher <HANK@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL> |2) attributes like disperal, persistence, etc. are unknown. All this |stuff is in libraries, and you used to be able to write the Pentagon |and they would mail you public domain info. Or send you a sample copy. |Problems as a weapon: Can be treated if detected in time (depending |on form). A vaccine exists (but crude), Iraq probably only has limited |quantities. Possible contamination if facilities attacked, unknown. You can thank the United States Center for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta for supplying their Iraqi counterparts with anthrax in 1985. Iraq did not have any anthrax spores up till then. |--e. nobuo miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov Hank Nussbacher Israel
eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) (02/05/91)
From: eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) In article <1991Feb4.050514.12630@cbnews.att.com> HANK@TAUNIVM.TAU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) writes: >|Problems as a weapon: Can be treated if detected in time (depending >|on form). A vaccine exists (but crude), Iraq probably only has limited >|quantities. Possible contamination if facilities attacked, unknown. >You can thank the United States Center for Disease Control (CDC) in >Atlanta for supplying their Iraqi counterparts with anthrax in 1985. >Iraq did not have any anthrax spores up till then. This is very true. This is partially because you need to have the disease to make vaccines. If one have developing countries (Iraq a developing country?) interested in raising sheep, one wanted this. Any specialist in biological warfare knows that biological technologies are two edged swords. Converting a factory making beer, yogurt, vaccines, baby food, whatever into a weapons plant is not that difficult. That's why this is poor man's warfare. Similar situations exist with other disease vaccines. Vaccines are weapons. Open air military experiments have been conducted around the world. These are acknowledged to some degree in the US and England. Small patches of land and buildings have been contaminated. Any suggestion that these lands or structures might return to a pre-contaminated state is a joke. [A relative had to deal with 5,000 dead sheep in about 1968 in a test which the US Army to this day will refuse to acknowledge (suspected a test of the nerve agent VX), they didn't know what they were dealing with at the time.] It is arguable that the CDC should not keep stores of disease agents (smallpox came up for discussion a few years back). The CDC is not military, it is part of the public health service (but one can see the twin edges). Take one, stick it into an egg or culture, and one has the beginnings of a self-contained weapon. For some disease agents, it is that simple, no big separation plants like for fissionable materials. It is also Dept. of Commerce/State (political) problem. You get into the political here [helping the foe who was once (still is) the foe of thy enemy]. In the past, salt was sown into Hannibal's lands. Let's hope similar incidents using biological warfare agents don't happen. The world is facing a very grim threat. --e. nobuo miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene AMERICA: CHANGE IT OR LOSE IT. The Drake Equation has a co-efficient for "Will we survive our technolgical future?"
dvlssd@cs.umu.se (Stefan Skoglund) (02/06/91)
From: dvlssd@cs.umu.se (Stefan Skoglund) In article <1991Feb5.035254.2230@cbnews.att.com> eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes: > >Open air military experiments have been conducted around the world. These >are acknowledged to some degree in the US and England. >Small patches of land and buildings have been contaminated. Any suggestion >that these lands or structures might return to a pre-contaminated state >is a joke. The British made a test with anthrax ( I believe ) on a island in Scotland. Northeast of the Hebrides. God know when or if we ever will be able to land there. Stefan Skoglund, dvlssd@cs.umu.se
howard@cos.com (Howard C. Berkowitz) (02/06/91)
From: howard@cos.com (Howard C. Berkowitz) One poster (Gene Miya?) suggested that information on biowar agent persistence, dispersal (which I interpret to mean optimal aerosol size), etc., is available. From experience in a previous life, the exact techniques of dispersal, and the desired concentration of organisms, are some of the more classifed aspects of BW. Let me merely say that building a disperser that can take the stresses of field handling, doesn't cook organisms while dispersing them, and achieves an optimal aerosol concentration is NOT a trivial engineering problem. In response to Hank Nussbacher, >You can thank the United States Center for Disease Control (CDC) in >Atlanta for supplying their Iraqi counterparts with anthrax in 1985. >Iraq did not have any anthrax spores up till then. Hank, do you have a source for this? Anthrax is fairly available in many medical research centers, and especially in veterinary facilities because it is a common disease of sheep. See remarks below I made in alt.desert-storm.facts. In the past, I did research in bacterial biochemistry, and dealt with the American Type Culture Collection. I'm afraid the comments below may be looking at a conspiracy theory which may not be supported by the realities of how medicine, medical research, etc., are really done. In article <13010@life.ai.mit.edu> sundar@ai.mit.edu writes: >Hi: I tried posting this before, but wasn't too successful. Someone >asked if Department of Commerce records can be made public. They >can, but sometimes it takes an enormous amount of effort. >Regarding biological weapons and who supplied Iraq, the picture is indeed >very murky. >* In 1988, Senator John McCain's office begins investigating a non-profit >company called the American Type Culture Collection in Rockville, MD. >* This co. sells 130,000 cultures annually. Iraq has been a customer for >the past 20 years. >* In 1989, ATCC ships tularemia to Iraq. Dept. of Commerce approves the >sale, State and Defense okay it. Let's draw an analogy to what ATCC does. If you are a chemist, and you want an ultrapure sample of some chemical to calibrate your analytical equipment, you go to something approved by the National Institute for Standards and Technology (or directly to NIST). In like manner, NIST broadcasts extremely accurate time information over WWV and other specialized radios. If you are setting up a hospital bacteriology lab, or doing quality control on it, you need known samples of disease-causing microorganisms to test that you can diagnose them. You may need known samples to compare two similar bacteria -- for example, P. tularensis (which causes tularemia) vs. P. pestis (which causes plague) [Yes, I know these are now Yersinia species]. The point I would make is the average medical school (I assume there is one in Iraq), or the medical school attended by a cooperative Iraqi student, normally would have these cultures. ATCC has them more definitively identified as to subspecies, etc. >* Seventeen other shipments to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission (thought >to be a fence for Iraq's biological weapons program), however, were NOT >cleared by the Pentagon or Defense -- no one there remembers any of the >applications. Yet they were shipped in the last couple of years anyway. >There have been anonymous leaks that these shipments contained botulin >and anthrax. Botulin, a common name for the toxins produced by Clostridium botulinum, is now being used as a drug, and is quite widely used in academic research. It really isn't hard to get. Similar, anthrax is also known as woolsorter's disease. It is a natural infection of sheep; Pasteur did the first immunization for it. Any nation with significant sheep has anthrax available. Think of the meat served at most middle Eastern restaurants -- Saddam probably has more sheep than Republican Guards. >* Last April, NBC breaks story of how PHS's Centres for Disease Control >has been shipping deadly viruses to researchers in Cuba, Iraq and South >Africa, and China via Express Mail -- all countries suspected of using >these for biological weapons research. (Biohazard level 3&4 materials >were shipped -- including an Israeli strain of West Nile encephalitis) [more examples deleted] I don't doubt that these countries are doing biological warfare research. However, remember that "deadly" microorganisms are readily available at most universities, for quite legitimate purposes. Don't sensationalize the dissemination of these; it's not the same as the diversion of weapons-grade plutonium or uranium. Those materials can be assumed to be for weapons use; you can't make the same assumptions about microbial cultures. -- howard@cos.com OR {uunet, decuac, sun!sundc, hadron, hqda-ai}!cos!howard (703) 883-2812 [W] (703) 998-5017 [H] DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the Corporation for Open Systems, its members, or any standards body.
tgg@otter.hpl.hp.com (Tom Gardner) (02/07/91)
From: tgg@otter.hpl.hp.com (Tom Gardner) |The British made a test with anthrax ( I believe ) on a island in Scotland. |Northeast of the Hebrides. | |God know when or if we ever will be able to land there. The island, Gruinard, is very near to Skye. A few years ago (5?) the army disinfected the island and prounounced it safe. I do not plan to live there myself.
jch@GS48.SP.CS.CMU.EDU (Jonathan Hardwick) (02/08/91)
From: Jonathan Hardwick <jch@GS48.SP.CS.CMU.EDU> In article <1991Feb6.025234.17651@cbnews.att.com>, dvlssd@cs.umu.se (Stefan Skoglund) writes: |> |> The British made a test with anthrax ( I believe ) on a island in Scotland. |> Northeast of the Hebrides. |> |> God know when or if we ever will be able to land there. The testing was performed in WW II, to establish whether or not anthrax was a viable wartime weapon. The island was off-limits to everyone not wearing an NBC suit until a few years back. The military then used a brand-new procedure to decontaminate the island; it was described on "Tomorrow's World", a British science-and-technology tv program. I can't remember the exact details, but I believe it involved injecting superheated saline steam (?) into the turf of the island. After suitable testing, they declared the island to be free of viable anthrax spores. However, I don't think anyone has yet gone so far as to actually *live* on the island. Maybe one of the Scottish correspondents has more info? Jonathan Hardwick, jch@cs.cmu.edu
dam@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) (02/12/91)
From: David Morning <dam@cs.glasgow.ac.uk> jch@GS48.SP.CS.CMU.EDU (Jonathan Hardwick) writes: }The testing was performed in WW II, to establish whether or not anthrax was a }viable wartime weapon. The island was off-limits to everyone not wearing an NBC }suit until a few years back. The military then used a brand-new procedure to }decontaminate the island; it was described on "Tomorrow's World", a British }science-and-technology tv program. I can't remember the exact details, but I }believe it involved injecting superheated saline steam (?) into the turf of the }island. After suitable testing, they declared the island to be free of viable }anthrax spores. However,I don't think anyone has yet gone so far as to actually }*live* on the island. Maybe one of the Scottish correspondents has more info? The island involved is Gruinard Island off the north west coast of Scotland. It's about half-way between the port of Ullapool to the north and Gareloch to the south. The island itself sits in a bay about a mile and a half off the mainland and is roughly circular about 1 1/2 miles in diameter. Various attempts over the years had been made to clean up the island including burning, removing the top foot of soil and flooding the whole island with formaldehyde (aaak!). I wasn't aware that they had used superheated saline steam on it but whatever the method it was declared safe by the MOD (Ministry of Defence) around 1986. Greenpeace arrived on the island shortly after the announcement, took away samples and declared the island still had anthrax spores present. The MOD countered that the levels were insignificant. The island was handed over to a trust body The Gruinard Island Trust who are currently trying to decide what to do with the island. No one lives on it at present. I spent last summer up in the area and can recommend it as very pretty but I think boat trips to Gruinard are probably out! Dave
eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) (02/14/91)
From: eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) In article <1991Feb12.013342.7678@cbnews.att.com> dam@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes: >I wasn't aware that they had used superheated saline steam on it Sounds like Day of the Trifids. The US has it share of contaminated buildings and ground (such at ex-Fort Detrick, MD and at Dugway Proving Ground in Utah). It is unclassified that anthrax and botulin spores can survive several hours in boiling water. I am not aware of exact level and extent of contamination which is probably need to know. Several popular films have been based on these incidents: chemical ["Rage," "Binary," "Whiffs," and probably others] biological: ["Warning Sign," "Virus," others]. --e. nobuo miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene AMERICA: CHANGE IT OR LOSE IT.
dam@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) (02/15/91)
From: David Morning <dam@cs.glasgow.ac.uk> eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes: >From: eugene@nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) >In article <1991Feb12.013342.7678@cbnews.att.com> >dam@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes: >>I wasn't aware that they had used superheated saline steam on it >Sounds like Day of the Trifids. The US has it share of contaminated More like Day of the Lepus given the rather puzzling case of the appearance of anthrax immune rabbits on the island in the late 50s/early 60s. The original rabbit population was wiped out completely together with some sheep and goats left on the island in the original test in the 40s. The island was barren for many years after that until rabbits suddenly appeared on it in the late 50s. The MOD denied it had put them their to test a vaccine and suggested they may have swam across at spring tide or locals had breached the exclusion zone around the island and introduced them deliberately. This caused great consternation amongst the locals who pointed out that if the rabbits swam across, they could swim back carrying anthrax with them. Whatever the reason the rabbits were zapped again and no more was heard about them until the early 80s when the went to give the island its final clean-up and found:- yep! Rabbits. All very peculiar. Has a touch of urban(or maybe rural) myth about it and it's impossible to confirm other than the rabbits WERE on the island in the late 50s as there was a loud public outcry about it. Dave .