greg@sif.claremont.edu (Tigger) (01/21/91)
From: Tigger <greg@sif.claremont.edu> As we all know by now, the performance of our 'high tech' weapons was a big question mark before this conflict since they had never been tested in battle. In the past few days, we have gotten the general impression that they have done fairly well, as witnessed by the Patriot and Tomahawk successes. What I'm interested in is the F-117A. I haven't heard a single thing about it. Has anyone who has been glued to the tube (or perhaps the paper) more than I heard anything? Can anyone even speculate? I must confess to knowing almost nothing about this plane except that it is so weird looking that if I hadn't seen it fly with my own two eyes, I might not believe it... Greg Orman greg@pomona.claremont.edu
jimp%sequent.uucp@RELAY.CS.NET (James Pilcher) (01/22/91)
From: James Pilcher <jimp%sequent.uucp@RELAY.CS.NET> on the f117: the "boys from bagdad" (cnn) reported that the skies were full of air raid sirens, and aaa, but no jets! :) then they noticed "shooting stars" and decided these were american jets-- silent, invisible, and fast. the aaa would start AFTER the jet had passed the battery.
brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks) (01/23/91)
From: Peter Brooks <brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> / hpcc01:sci.military / brooksp@hpcc01.HP.COM (Peter Brooks) / 12:52 pm Jan 21, 1991 / Our local radio station (KGO in SF) has a reporter in Saudi Arabia, and he got drafted to be the radio pool reporter. I've heard a few interviews where the station was actually able to make contact with him for long conversations. He was with the group that had the F117As, and he got to see the videos after the first strikes. Apparently, the 37th was the first group into the tough targets, and they were responsible for some of the spectacular hits on Bagdad and other targets. Apparently the combination of an F117 and a smart bomb is pretty devastating. I've heard that the nickname for the 117 is the Wobblin' Goblin, but hey, why *should* it be easy to fly? The pilots seem pretty happy with its performance.. Pete Brooks ----------
john@uunet.UU.NET (John A. Weeks III) (01/23/91)
From: newave!john@uunet.UU.NET (John A. Weeks III) > From: Tigger <greg@sif.claremont.edu> > What I'm interested in is the F-117A. I haven't heard a single thing about > it. Has anyone who has been glued to the tube (or perhaps the paper) more > than I heard anything? CNN did a 10 or so minute special report on the F-117. They talked with crew and showed flight preperation including shots of the cockpit and a takeoff. They also had video of a F-117 attack in Baghdad. It droped a 2000 pound bomb down the center of a building. In general, all of the reports of F-117 usage has been very positive. One pilot reported that he could get within 12 seconds of his target before being noticed. -john- -- =============================================================================== John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 john@newave.mn.org NeWave Communications ...uunet!rosevax!tcnet!wd0gol!newave!john ===============================================================================
swilliam@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Williams) (01/23/91)
From: swilliam@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Williams) In article <1991Jan21.041222.5270@cbnews.att.com> greg@sif.claremont.edu (Tigger) writes: >From: Tigger <greg@sif.claremont.edu> > >What I'm interested in is the F-117A. I haven't heard a single thing about >it. Has anyone who has been glued to the tube (or perhaps the paper) more >than I heard anything? The F-117s were used at the start of the war to attack vital military targets, such as radars, military centers, etc. For example, one F-117 destroyed Iraq's military communication center with a laser-guided "smart" bomb. This has seriously impaired (in fact, eliminated) Iraq's ability to direct its defense.
stein-c@acsu.buffalo.edu (Craig Steinberger) (01/24/91)
From: stein-c@acsu.buffalo.edu (Craig Steinberger) In article <1991Jan23.043709.7563@cbnews.att.com> brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks) writes: >I've heard that the nickname for the >117 is the Wobblin' Goblin, but hey, why *should* it be easy >to fly? The pilots seem pretty happy with its performance.. When I was at NASA Langely this past summer, two F-117's came by for a airshow at Langely AFB next door. Somehow NASA and the local AIAA branch arranged for a briefing by one of the pilots. According to him, the only nickname the pilots have for the F-117 is "the Black Jet". He was evasive about most of the audience questions, but some of the points made were: Top Speed: "High subsonic" Weaponry: "A full array of weapons from the USAF arsenal" Maneuverability: "Like any other fighter" Another interesting point was that the F-117 are always parked in hangars. They are never left outside. -- Craig Steinberger stein-c@eng.buffalo.edu SUNY at Buffalo, Computational Fluid Dynamics Lab
smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) (01/25/91)
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) In article greg@sif.claremont.edu (Tigger) writes... >What I'm interested in is the F-117A. I haven't heard a single thing about >it. Has anyone who has been glued to the tube (or perhaps the paper) more >than I heard anything? There were repeated showing of video tapes of F117-launched guided bombs going through air shafts and doors of buildings and bunkers. >Can anyone even speculate? I must confess to knowing almost nothing about >this plane except that it is so weird looking that if I hadn't seen it fly >with my own two eyes, I might not believe it... The ineffective Iraqi anti-aircraft defenses should be proof enough of the effect of the F117A. They attacked without detection in about the same time that the Tomahawks hit.
smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) (02/04/91)
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
In article brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks) writes...
/I've heard that the nickname for the
/117 is the Wobblin' Goblin, but hey, why *should* it be easy
/to fly? The pilots seem pretty happy with its performance..
I like the name that the Iraqis are using for the F-117A: the Ghost or
the Devil.tkogoma%triton.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) (02/05/91)
From: tkogoma%triton.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) In article <1991Feb4.065635.21784@cbnews.att.com> smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes: >In article brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks) writes... >/I've heard that the nickname for the >/117 is the Wobblin' Goblin, but hey, why *should* it be easy >/to fly? The pilots seem pretty happy with its performance.. According to a recent NOVA show on camoflage and stealth technology, the F-117 is "...an inherrently unstable aircraft." Apperantly, the on-board computer is required to make the necessary corrections to keep the thing flying. This takes the "fly by wire" concept one step further: You tell the computer what you want the plane to do, the computer tells the plane how to do it. >I like the name that the Iraqis are using for the F-117A: the Ghost or >the Devil. What *is* the 'official' name for the F-117? I've heard the name "Ghostrider" somewhwere (maybe a Tom Clancy book), but I don't recall a more 'official source for it... -- Capt. Gym Z. Quirk net.terrorist (reformed) | THIS SPACE FOR RENT tkogoma@triton.cirt.unm.edu | (until I can find (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | a decent quote.)
john@uunet.UU.NET (John A. Weeks III) (02/06/91)
From: newave!john@uunet.UU.NET (John A. Weeks III) From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) > In article brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks) writes... > > I've heard that the nickname for the > > 117 is the Wobblin' Goblin, but hey, why *should* it be easy > > to fly? The pilots seem pretty happy with its performance.. Actaully, the pilots that I talked with this summer were quite offended when people refer to their plane as the "Wobblin' Goblin". That name was reserved for the F-85, which was not successful. According to my sources, pilots refer to the F-117 as the "Black Jet". Incidently, the F-117 is quite easy to fly. The hard part about it is that there is no 2 seat F-117 to train in, and all flights were at night until recently. > I like the name that the Iraqis are using for the F-117A: the Ghost or > the Devil. Dick Cheeny commented in a breifing that the F-117 is making the case for stealth in a very convincing way. -john- -- =============================================================================== John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 john@newave.mn.org NeWave Communications ...uunet!rosevax!tcnet!wd0gol!newave!john ===============================================================================
brndlfly@athena.mit.edu (Matthew T Velazquez) (02/06/91)
From: brndlfly@athena.mit.edu (Matthew T Velazquez) In article <1991Feb4.065635.21784@cbnews.att.com> tkogoma@triton.cirt.unm.edu writes: >What *is* the 'official' name for the F-117? I've heard the name >"Ghostrider" somewhwere (maybe a Tom Clancy book), but I don't recall >a more 'official source for it... Well, let's see... Clancy called it the Frisbee. I don't know the source for "Ghostrider". An early report in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science (I never can keep those two damn mags straight), said that the pilots called it the Wobbly Goblin, apparently due to a not-entirely-trustworthy active-control system. The problem was fixed in a hurry, and nobody since will admit to have EVER called it the Wobbly Goblin. The chosen Air Force name for the F-117 is Nighthawk. It was decided upon in the last few months. Pilots still refuse to call it what it is supposed to be called. The tarmac nickname for the plane is, in keeping with a pre-unveiling security measure, the Black Jet. T Velazquez MIT Aero/Astro brndlfly@athena.mit.edu
nak%archie@att.att.com (Neil A Kirby) (02/06/91)
From: nak%archie@att.att.com (Neil A Kirby) In article <1991Feb5.043703.6484@cbnews.att.com> tkogoma%triton.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) writes: > > >From: tkogoma%triton.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) >In article <1991Feb4.065635.21784@cbnews.att.com> smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes: >>In article brooksp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Peter Brooks) writes... >>/I've heard that the nickname for the >>/117 is the Wobblin' Goblin, but hey, why *should* it be easy >>/to fly? The pilots seem pretty happy with its performance.. > >According to a recent NOVA show on camoflage and stealth technology, >the F-117 is "...an inherrently unstable aircraft." Apperantly, the >on-board computer is required to make the necessary corrections to >keep the thing flying. This takes the "fly by wire" concept one step >further: You tell the computer what you want the plane to do, the >computer tells the plane how to do it. Not really. The F16 is barely stable, and then only in certain parts of the flight envelope/modes. The fly by wire system itself has modes, one of which is slow reacting for inflight refueling. The X-29 (forward swept wings) is also fly by wire with the computer providing most of the stability. The test pilots loved it. The unclassified data I saw as an Air Force Employee (1980) showed a roughly parabolic curve [open ends up] intesected by a horizontal line. Everything below the horizontal line was stable, everything above was unstable. The F16's curve was very close to the line, with the computer providing stability above the line. The more stable the plane, the harder it is to manuever. The F16 is designed to be barely stable to unstable to make it quicker to maneuver. The computer is supposed to attention to what the pilot is doing. For two manuevers, (high G climbout and high G dive), the computer is supposed to bring the plane out of them after the pilot blacks out. Having seen the NOVA episode where the F16 training mission winds up pointed at the ground with a blacked out pilot [and an extremely pissed back seat instructor], I can not say if this software actually exists and/or works. Neil Kirby
davisp@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Palmer Davis) (02/07/91)
From: davisp@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (Palmer Davis) In article <1991Feb6.033211.22782@cbnews.att.com> brndlfly@athena.mit.edu (Matthew T Velazquez) writes: >In article <1991Feb4.065635.21784@cbnews.att.com> tkogoma@triton.cirt.unm.edu writes: > >>What *is* the 'official' name for the F-117? > >Clancy called it the Frisbee. I don't know the source for "Ghostrider". Clancy didn't call it anything. He called the "F-19A" the "Ghostrider" (nicknamed the "Frisbee" by its pilots); _Red_Storm_Rising_ was written back before anybody knew anything about the F-117, and conventional wisdom held that the stealth fighter would be called the "F-19". It is interesting to note that although the "F-19" was a figment of everyone's imagination, most sources agreed more or less on what it looked like. There's a picture of one on the box cover of Microprose's _F-19_Stealth_Fighter_ game; GDW's _Air_Superiority_ gives a data card with a silhouette. I also remember seeing artist's renderings of the plane in several magazines; I don't remember the exact references offhand. The plane is shaped something like a long, thin guitar pick with two tails that slope in. It was supposed to evade radar by absorbing or slightly deflecting incoming radar signals with very little return as opposed to the F-117 which apparently evades radar by bouncing the return off at odd angles rather than back to the receiver. (The occasional wave that does make it back is supposed to look like random noise to the operator.) I suppose it's possible that a plane resembling the one that everyone expected may have been built as a prototype at some point but abandoned in favor of the F-117 either due to superior flight characteristics or better radar evasion (or both). We'll probably never know. According to Clancy, the F-19A was supposed to be a pig to fly; according to GDW, it's just about as maneuverable as an F-18. (The question is academic since the plane doesn't exist.) -- PTD -- -- Palmer T. Davis | davisp@scl.cwru.edu -OR- ptd2@po.cwru.edu Case Western Reserve University | {att,sun,decvax,uunet}!cwjcc!skybridge!davisp --------------------------------+---------------------+------------------------ Wake up and smell the cat food in your bank account. | Life is short.
orpheus@reed.UUCP (P. Hawthorne) (02/07/91)
From: orpheus@reed.UUCP (P. Hawthorne) .. I've heard that the nickname for the F-117 is the Wobblin' Goblin, but hey, .. why *should* it be easy to fly? The pilots seem pretty happy with its .. performance.. Pilots claim it is as agile as any other fighter. People who have seen them at Tonopah say they seem to fly like any other plane, no matter how weird the airframe is. Since so much of the plane was taken off the shelf, so to speak, I can imagine it being quite ordinary in that regard. . According to a recent NOVA show on camoflage and stealth technology, . the F-117 is "...an inherrently unstable aircraft." Apparantly, the . on-board computer is required to make the necessary corrections to . keep the thing flying. This takes the "fly by wire" concept one step . further: You tell the computer what you want the plane to do, the . computer tells the plane how to do it. There have been three crashes that I know of. I think two of them were unexplained, but I read one report that hinted that the pilots just got spooked flying by instruments in complete darkness, and overcompensated. Flying solely by wire and instruments has got to be rough on the nerves. .. I like the name that the Iraqis are using for the F-117A: the Ghost or .. the Devil. . What *is* the 'official' name for the F-117? I've heard the name . "Ghostrider" somewhwere (maybe a Tom Clancy book), but I don't recall . a more 'official source for it... The pilots say that they do not know of anyone but the press that calls it that. The unofficial name Black Jet was used in an article in Popular Mechanics just after the unveiling. Since then, it has officially been named Nighthawk. I designed a simulator model of the plane, and I find the name quite appropriate. It looks like a hawk with wings folded back for speed, especially from the ground while it flies straight and level at a couple hundred feet. The patches for the teams that worked on it bear quite a few more, say, indelicate names. orpheus@reed ''Up, down, turn around. Please don't let me hit the ground.'' - New Order
scott@graft.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) (02/07/91)
From: scott@graft.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) nak%archie@att.att.com (Neil A Kirby) writes: |> The unclassified data I saw as an Air Force Employee (1980) showed a |> roughly parabolic curve [open ends up] intesected by a horizontal line. |> Everything below the horizontal line was stable, everything above was |> unstable. The F16's curve was very close to the line, with the computer |> providing stability above the line. The more stable the plane, the harder |> it is to manuever. The F16 is designed to be barely stable to unstable to |> make it quicker to maneuver. The F-18 is also designed with an inherent pitch instability. This allows it to pitch up rather quickly, while the computer gives the plane the illusion of great stability. F-18 drivers often comment on how they love to fly it because it "basically flies itself", the pilot just needs to point where he wants to go. /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Scott Silvey | DOD Spokesman Pete Williams on Cruise Missiles: | | scott@xcf.berkeley.edu | "We just don't discuss that capability. I can't | | | tell you why we don't discuss it because then I'd | | Flames to /dev/null | be discussing it." | \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
howard@cos.com (Howard C. Berkowitz) (02/08/91)
From: howard@cos.com (Howard C. Berkowitz) In article <1991Feb5.043703.6484@cbnews.att.com> tkogoma%triton.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) writes: >What *is* the 'official' name for the F-117? I've heard the name >"Ghostrider" somewhwere (maybe a Tom Clancy book), but I don't recall >a more 'official source for it... The PBS special on camouflage and stealth had interviews with a number of people in the F-117 unit(s). They said the plane does not have an official name, but is rather universally called, in the F-117 units, The Black Jet. -- howard@cos.com OR {uunet, decuac, sun!sundc, hadron, hqda-ai}!cos!howard (703) 883-2812 [W] (703) 998-5017 [H] DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the Corporation for Open Systems, its members, or any standards body.
tohall@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) (02/13/91)
From: tohall@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) A followup to this message: | The F-18 is also designed with an inherent pitch instability. This allows | it to pitch up rather quickly, while the computer gives the plane the | illusion of great stability. F-18 drivers often comment on how they love | to fly it because it "basically flies itself", the pilot just needs to | point where he wants to go. Back in 86 or 87 I worked on an F/A-18 flight test airplane at NWC/China Lake. It was either a late development prototype or an early production model that had been "donated" for weapons system integration work. It had a unique toggle switch on the control panel labeled "SPIN RECOVERY". I was told that the software for the flight control computer still had a few bugs in it during the early days. Throwing this switch would supposedly tell the computer to enter a "safe" mode, applying some sort of spin recovery control sequence. Later birds supposedly did not need this switch. Any body out there know if this switch still exists in fleet-deployed Hornets? Just curious. E-mail answers and I will post a summary. Our esteemed moderator sure is busting his tail these days, eh?
luj@gus16.ecn.purdue.edu (Jun Lu) (02/14/91)
From: pur-ee!luj@gus16.ecn.purdue.edu (Jun Lu) > >The F-18 is also designed with an inherent pitch instability. This allows > it to pitch up rather quickly, while the computer gives the plane the > illusion of great stability. F-18 drivers often comment on how they love Computer deos not give the illusion. Neither can it provide stability mystically. It is the on board _control system_ that does job -- it generates the control signal using feedback principal, and acutators receving the signals produce control forces to affect the control surfaces(aileron, rudder, ...)of the airplane. This effectively modifies the closed-loop system's dynamics, making it a stable system. For F-18, it uses a digital controller, implemented by a digital computer. which just runs the control algorithms and generates the control signal ... Actuators do the physical job ... -- -- Jun Lu Internet:luj@ecn.purdue.edu -- -- Aeronautics & Astronautics Bitnet: luj%ecn.purdue.edu@purccvm -- -- Purdue University UUCP: pur-ee!luj -- -- W. Lafayette, IN 47907 Phone:317-494-9410 Fax:317-494-0307 --
jwilson@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Joe Wilson) (02/27/91)
From: Joe Wilson <jwilson@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov> Dave Hall (tohall@mars.lerc.nasa.gov) writes: >A followup to this message> >| The F-18 is also designed with an inherent pitch instability. This allows >| it to pitch up rather quickly, while the computer gives the plane the >| illusion of great stability. F-18 drivers often comment on how they love >| to fly it because it "basically flies itself", the pilot just needs to >| point where he wants to go. The F-18 is not inherently unstable in pitch. In fact McDonnell's approach to the F-18 design was to insure that the aerodynamics of the design were stable from the very beginning. This is one of the reasons for the F-18 being so spin free in the fleet. Mind you, the aerodynamics still required a tailored control system to make it fly with good flying qualities. > Back in 86 or 87 I worked on an F/A-18 flight test airplane at >NWC/China Lake. It was either a late development prototype or an >early production model that had been "donated" for weapons system integration >work. It had a unique toggle switch on the control panel labeled "SPIN >RECOVERY". I was told that the software for the flight control computer >still had a few bugs in it during the early days. Throwing this switch would >supposedly tell the computer to enter a "safe" mode, applying some sort of >spin recovery control sequence. Later birds supposedly did not need this >switch. The Spin Recovery switch is still in all F-18's. It is labeled (SRM). The function of this switch is to remove all control system feedbacks, allowing full control authority when demanded by the pilot. Normally the use of this switch is not required in a spin recovery. In very rare cases the F-18 can enter an oscillitory spin mode that requires the SRM switch to be used. -- Joe Wilson wilson@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA Of course I don't speak for NASA