wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (02/26/91)
From: Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL> Not too far back, someone posted a question regarding the effects on a tank crew of *non-lethal* hits, and what happens inside a tank bearing reactive armor when it works and goes off and successfully defeats an anti-tank munition. I never saw any responses. Please, if anyone out there knows, post! This seems to be widely ignored, and I think it is worth far more attention than it gets. After all, if a tank crew is completely deafened, or suffering from concussions and bleeding from ruptured eardrums, etc., that tank is just about as out-of-commission as if the enemy round had succeeded in killing the crew or disabling the tank. Even if the crew eventually recovers in a matter of hours or days, that tank is out of the current battle until the personnel are replaced, and I don't recall ever hearing of any procedures for carrying along and getting spare/replacement crews into other tanks in the midst of a battle! In peacetime training, are there *ever* intentionally people inside a tank when it is hit by live fire? Somehow I doubt it -- even if there were volunteers, there are so many safety rules and liability considerations tht I just can't imagine such a situation being approved. Sure, the target tank may be heavily instrumented, but it seems like the only way we'll ever get any real idea of what goes on inside a successfully-defended tank is combat. We're getting that data for ourselves now, but have we accumulated any such info from the Israelis or other allies who use the same equipment we use? (And that still won't cover our own current tanks not yet sold to others.) Do we have any ideas of whether the crew just hears a loud CLANG and gets a headache, or if there are severe disabling effects (temporary or permanent), or something in-between? As a start, surely some of the experienced armor people on this list have been inside a tank or APC when it was hit with small-arms fire that didn't penetrate. What was it like? Of no consequence, like being in a car during a light hailstorm? Or was it deafening and frightening/disturbing? If your hand was on the inner surface of an armor plate when the outer side was hit by a rifle round, say, what happens? Is it just a vibration and maybe a stinging, or is there a severe shockwave sent through your hand, maybe damaging it? Or some intermediate effect? Anyone experienced some explosive going off on the other side of armor plate you were near or touching? If the impact/effect isn't enough to cause spalling inside, what else may happen? Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil
ccplumb@rose.uwaterloo.ca (Colin Plumb) (02/27/91)
From: ccplumb@rose.uwaterloo.ca (Colin Plumb) wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) wrote: > In peacetime training, are there *ever* intentionally people inside a tank > when it is hit by live fire? Somehow I doubt it -- even if there were > volunteers, there are so many safety rules and liability considerations > that I just can't imagine such a situation being approved. A few years back, I saw a TV documentary on an Israeli-developed tank. It was designed for survivability, with non-flammable libricants, kevlar anti-spalling interior, low profile, etc. The documentart said a frequent test was to put a crew inside, fire a shell at it, and see how fast the crew could recover. This is a few years old; I have no idea what's happened since then. -- -Colin
john%ghostwheel.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (John Prentice) (02/27/91)
From: john%ghostwheel.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (John Prentice) In article <1991Feb26.011553.5289@cbnews.att.com> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes: > >Not too far back, someone posted a question regarding the effects on a >tank crew of *non-lethal* hits, and what happens inside a tank bearing >reactive armor when it works and goes off and successfully defeats an >anti-tank munition. I never saw any responses. Please, if anyone out >there knows, post! This seems to be widely ignored, and I think it is >worth far more attention than it gets. Let me hazard an educated guess. My hunch is that there are insignificant sounds created, at least insignificant in terms of incapacitating someone. Sound is communicated from the outside of the armor to the inside by vibrating it. I doubt you are going to get a devastating audible vibration in armor. If you do, you are probably dead. However, as I said, this is just a guess. I imagine there are people finding out for real right now. [mod.note: I would add that in my readings on tank warfare, this shock effect has never been stated as a serious problem. It's possible that the faster modern penetrators may be more severe, of course. - Bill ] John -- John K. Prentice john@unmfys.unm.edu (Internet) Dept. of Physics and Astronomy, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM, USA Computational Physics Group, Amparo Corporation, Albuquerque, NM, USA
denbeste@spdcc.com (Steven Den Beste) (02/28/91)
From: denbeste@spdcc.com (Steven Den Beste)
In article <1991Feb27.015526.18943@cbnews.att.com> john%ghostwheel.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (John Prentice) writes:
%Let me hazard an educated guess. My hunch is that there are insignificant
%sounds created, at least insignificant in terms of incapacitating someone.
%Sound is communicated from the outside of the armor to the inside by
%vibrating it.
I might suggest that the sound inside the tank from its OWN gun going off
would be louder than that from a round going off outside its armor.
Don't tankers have to wear major-league ear protection?
(...and then again, I might not suggest it.)brian@uunet.UU.NET (brian douglass personal account) (02/28/91)
From: edat!brian@uunet.UU.NET (brian douglass personal account) In article <1991Feb27.015359.18692@cbnews.att.com> ccplumb@rose.uwaterloo.ca (Colin Plumb) writes: > >A few years back, I saw a TV documentary on an Israeli-developed tank. >It was designed for survivability, with non-flammable libricants, >kevlar anti-spalling interior, low profile, etc. Isn't this the Israeli Merkava (?) tank? I think the documentary was a 60 Minutes article on the difference between U.S. procurement practices and that of the Israelis, focusing on the Merkava and the M1. They also showed some great footage of the Merkava in action against Syrian T-72s and the like. They emphasized how the Israelis kept all the old Syrian hulks and studied them to determine what actions killed the tanks and what killed the crews. It seems like not long after this M1A1s got rolling. We all should know by now the differences between the M1 and M1A1, but could someone please elaborate on where the inputs came from for the enhancements? Were they the result of Israeli information gleened from the Lebanon Invasion? Thanks Brian Douglass Voice: 702-361-1510 X311 Electronic Data Technologies FAX #: 702-361-2545 1085 Palms Airport Drive brian@edat.uucp Las Vegas, NV 89119-3715
major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (03/01/91)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: denbeste@spdcc.com (Steven Den Beste) > I might suggest that the sound inside the tank from its OWN gun going off > would be louder than that from a round going off outside its armor. > Don't tankers have to wear major-league ear protection? Surprisingly, it's not that loud at all. Tankers wear CVC helmets that have radio head sets inside that 'surround' the ears - but its not a true ear protector like you'd wear on a firing range. The BANG! of the main gun is much, much louder to those outside the tank. What I always wanted was a pair of steel gloves for when I got my fingers slammed in the hatches. In an APC, the other major problem for the TC (track commander) is lower back problems when you slam into the hatch ring when the track slews - or if you don't lock down the .50 cal and it swings around and the barrel smacks you in the head. You gotta be carefull - you can get hurt on the battlefield :-) mike schmitt
awtron@vanilla.princeton.edu (Andrew Tron D-313 x3749) (03/05/91)
From: awtron@vanilla.princeton.edu (Andrew Tron D-313 x3749) In article <1991Feb28.045630.5898@cbnews.att.com> denbeste@spdcc.com (Steven Den Beste) writes: > >I might suggest that the sound inside the tank from its OWN gun going off >would be louder than that from a round going off outside its armor. >Don't tankers have to wear major-league ear protection? > >(...and then again, I might not suggest it.) In the book "Aquarium" by the Soviet defector Viktor Suvorov, the author describes a tank exercise. He stated that the tank crewmember's earpones would click a fraction of a second before the gun fired. The ear would then react to the click, thus protecting it from the ensuing boom. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never trust a pilot with clean hands.| Andrew Tron at Princeton University Never address a major international | awtron@phoenix.princeton.edu (Internet) terrorist as "Bubbi". | uunet!phoenix!awtron (UUCP)
eellis%avior.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Eli) (03/05/91)
From: eellis%avior.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Eli) >>A few years back, I saw a TV documentary on an Israeli-developed tank. >>It was designed for survivability, with non-flammable libricants, >>kevlar anti-spalling interior, low profile, etc. > >Isn't this the Israeli Merkava (?) tank? I think the documentary Yes it is the Merkava. A well designed tank. >We all should know by now the differences between the M1 and M1A1, M1: 105mm cannon M1A1: 120mm Rhinemetal smoothbore cannon and (I think==>) depleated uranium armour on front bussel, and possibly improved optics. >but could someone please elaborate on where the inputs came from for >the enhancements? Were they the result of Israeli information >gleened from the Lebanon Invasion? I doubt it, since the Merkava had a 105mm cannon at that time. The improvements probably stemmed from Germany's Leopard II which sported a 120mm Rhinemetal smoothbore cannon. -- Graduated | Eli Ellis | eellis@hydra.unm.edu University of New Mexico ---------------- Veritas Omnia Vincit Congratulating the VICTORIOUS & TRIUMPHANT Armed Services of Desert Storm -------------------------------------(=o=)------------------------------------
amoss@shum.huji.ac.il (Amos Shapira) (03/07/91)
From: Amos Shapira <amoss@shum.huji.ac.il>
>Isn't this the Israeli Merkava (?) tank?
The Merkava is the only Israeli-made tank.
--
--Amos Shapira
C.S. System Group
Hebrew University
Jerusalem, Israel
amoss@shuldig.huji.ac.ilpaulf@mcnc.org (Paul Damian Franzon) (03/13/91)
From: paulf@mcnc.org (Paul Damian Franzon) In article <1991Feb28.045630.5898@cbnews.att.com> denbeste@spdcc.com (Steven Den Beste) writes: > >I might suggest that the sound inside the tank from its OWN gun going off >would be louder than that from a round going off outside its armor. >Don't tankers have to wear major-league ear protection? > Not as much as the poor infantryman next to the tank! It is even worse than the recoiless rifles I have fired. Actually, the noise inside the tank is not that high (but high enough to warrant ear protection.) When you fire the tank gun, the noise "sounds" like it is actually coming from outside with a muffled "boom". With the hatches closed I imagine it might not be that loud at all (but I am just guessing on the second part.) This experience is from M-60s. Paul Franzon CPT Infnatry
paulf@mcnc.org (Paul Damian Franzon) (03/13/91)
From: paulf@mcnc.org (Paul Damian Franzon) [Note to Moderator: I am out of date on following this list. Please do not post if there has been a definitive answer. My apologies if that is the case.] In article <1991Feb26.011553.5289@cbnews.att.com> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes: > > >From: Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL> >Not too far back, someone posted a question regarding the effects on a >tank crew of *non-lethal* hits, and what happens inside a tank bearing >reactive armor when it works and goes off and successfully defeats an >anti-tank munition. I never saw any responses. Please, if anyone out >there knows, post! While I was having breakfast with the CO of the Armor Bn in the Brigade I am in, I asked him this question. His answer was that at the end of the battles in the Kuwaiti Theatre of Operations Tank Crews were discovering that they had been hit during the battle, by anti-tank ammunition, and were not even aware of it due to the general noise of battle! Admittedly his answer most likely pertains to M1s. According to a WW2 tanker I knew once he could hear the constant small thuds of small arms rounds striking his tank. Paul Franzon CPT Infantry
Charles.K.Scott@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott) (03/13/91)
From: Charles.K.Scott@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott) In article <1991Feb26.011553.5289@cbnews.att.com> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes: Not too far back, someone posted a question regarding the effects on a tank crew of *non-lethal* hits, and what happens inside a tank bearing reactive armor when it works and goes off and successfully defeats an anti-tank munition. I never saw any responses. Please, if anyone out there knows, post! In a book recently published consisting of various remembrances of WW II combat was a section about a pilot who flew a Piper Cub to spot for artillery. While he was flying in Italy, he chanced upon a Tiger tank, and quickly called in fire on it. He observed frequent near misses and occaisional hits. I don't recall the caliber of the artillery, but he went on to say that the tank kept crawling along in the midst of the barrage, then discourged a crew member, aparently from the belly hatch. This man never moved and the pilot conjectured that he died from the concussion of the rounds hitting the tank. Eventually the tank rolled to a stop and began to smoke. The spotter claims to be the only air spotter to kill a tank in this fashion. From this account, I can surmise that a non penetrating hit can make life very difficult for a tanker, if the hit is from a round of sufficient caliber. Corky Scott <Charles.K.Scott@Mac.Dartmouth.Edu>