daveb@uunet.UU.NET (Dave Brower) (03/14/91)
From: mtxinu!Ingres.COM!daveb@uunet.UU.NET (Dave Brower) If the thing fires ~400m with an arced trajectory, what kind of accuracy can the grenadier have firing it hand-held? You'd think it would take a few shots just to find the range, or a hell of a lot of practice with dummy rounds. (Is this a case of "close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades"?) Do mortars exist anymore? Are they deployed in artillery units or somewhere else? thanks, -dB
carlson@haven.mitre.org (Bruce Carlson) (03/15/91)
From: carlson@haven.mitre.org (Bruce Carlson) In article <1991Mar14.040807.28534@cbnews.att.com> mtxinu!Ingres.COM!daveb@uunet.UU.NET (Dave Brower) writes: > >If the thing fires ~400m with an arced trajectory, what kind of accuracy >can the grenadier have firing it hand-held? You'd think it would take a >few shots just to find the range, or a hell of a lot of practice with >dummy rounds. (Is this a case of "close only counts in horseshoes and >hand-grenades"?) > >Do mortars exist anymore? Are they deployed in artillery units or >somewhere else? The M203 has a fold-out sight on top of the M16 and it is supposed to be able to deal with the trajectory and get you close (as you said, close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades) to your target. I've never actually tried to hit anything with one. Also, one M203 round I haven't seen mentioned is what we used to call a "shotgun" round. It has pellets in it and is designed to use as a direct fire weapon. When we put guards on the Ammunition Supply Point we used to issue these rounds instead of giving them M-16 ammo. I think the idea was that they could stop someone, but were less likely to accidently kill someone with the M203 than they were if they panicked and fired an M-16 on full auto. Mortars: In a standard infantry battalion each line infantry company (A, B, C) has three "infantry" platoons and one mortar platoon with 81 mm mortars. The battalion's Combat Support Company has 4.2 inch mortars. In Airborne and light divisions it is downsized to 60mm in the company and 81mm as a battalion asset in the headquarters company. Mortars are an organic infantry asset and are designed to be used as observed fire. If the unit needs additional indirect fire support they will call on their direct support artillery battalion. "Laying in" an artillery battery is a very meticulous operation and they are trained to do it very quickly and accurately. Laying in the mortar platoon is a less precise operation and there is a proportional loss in accuracy of the first few rounds. The artillery observer may be many miles from the artillery and the artillery fire must be accurate enough hit a distant target. The mortar observer is usually quite close to the mortars. In most cases the mortar crew can see what they are shooting at. Bruce Carlson
major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (03/15/91)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: mtxinu!Ingres.COM!daveb@uunet.UU.NET (Dave Brower) > If the thing fires ~400m with an arced trajectory, what kind of accuracy > can the grenadier have firing it hand-held? You'd think it would take a > few shots just to find the range, or a hell of a lot of practice with > dummy rounds. (Is this a case of "close only counts in horseshoes and > hand-grenades"?) Surprisingly fairly accurate - with a little Kentucky windage and elevation. A good 'grenadier' with lots of practice - can plop that round - pretty close to his target - with a 5meter bursting radius - "close" counts. > Do mortars exist anymore? Are they deployed in artillery units or > somewhere else? Sure do - company commander's hip pocket artillery. Each Rifle Company has three 81mm mortars - and each Battalion has four 4.2inch Hvy Mort Plat. (called "four deuce") mortars (someone check my current MTO&E structure). In mech/arm units they are carried in M106A2 (modified M113s) Mortar Carriers. Mortar crew are infantry - not artillerymen. They are 11C indirect-fire crewmen. (I don't remember if a Tank Battalion has a 4.2 Section or not). In light infantry companies - the new M224 60mm Lightweight Company Mortar is replacing the current 81mm. Max range of 3,500 meters and rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute. The M29A1 81mm Mortar has a range of 5,650 meters with max rate of fire at 30 rounds per minute. The M30 4.2in Mortar has a range of 6,840 meters. The new 120mm M120 Battalion Mortar System will replace the 4.2 and has a range of 7,200 meters. The BMS-120 contractor is Martin-Marietta Ordnance system. The sub-contract manufacturers are Israel's Soltam, Ltd and Israel Military Industries. In October '84 the Army Chief of Staff directed an accelerated acquisition of an "off-the-shelf" foreign system. mike schmitt
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (03/15/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> Data on the M203: Maximum range: 400m Maximum effective range (M406 HE, area target): 350m Maximum effective range (M406 HE, point target): 150m Minimum safe firing range (M406 HE round): 31m Maximum effective range (M576 Multiprojectile Canister): 30m I've fired an M203 with a training round. The M203 uses a leaf sight set for a particular range in increments of 50 meters up to 300 meters. I sighted the training round for 100 meters and it landed about 5 meters short and 5 meters to the right of where I expected it to. Since the kill radius of the HE projectile is up to 20 meters, this is accurate enough. I only fired once, and my first shot was good enough to destroy whatever I would have been aiming at had it been for real. The United States Marines fields two mortars, the M224 60mm and the M29A1 81mm. The M224 is a company mortar and there is a mortar section with four to six weapons in each rifle company's Weapons Platoon. In the Battalion Weapons company, there is a 81mm mortar battery with six weapons. Other primary assault weapons found in the Infantry battalion organization are the M2HB .50 cal Heavy Machine Gun (Battalion), the Mk 19 Mod 3 40mm Heavy Machine Gun (Battalion), the M60E3 Medium Machine Gun (Battalion and Company), the Shoulder-launched Multipuropse Assault Weapon (both), the AT-4 (Company), and the M47 Dragon Weapon System (Battalion). If requested, I can provide full data on all of these direct and indirect fire weapons and their numbers and employment in a Marine infantry unit. Allan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Bourdius [MIDN 3/C (Marine Option)/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity] ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or Box 4719, 5125 Margaret Morrison St., Pgh., PA 15213 "Give, expecting nothing thereof." "Phi Kappa Theta, just the best." "An unwarlike Marine is quite as unthinkable as an honest burglar." Nothing that I have written is the opinion of anyone but myself. So there!
davecb@nexus.yorku.ca (David Collier-Brown) (03/18/91)
From: davecb@nexus.yorku.ca (David Collier-Brown) mtxinu!Ingres.COM!daveb@uunet.UU.NET (Dave Brower) writes: | If the thing fires ~400m with an arced trajectory, what kind of accuracy | can the grenadier have firing it hand-held? You'd think it would take a | few shots just to find the range, or a hell of a lot of practice with | dummy rounds. Well, if you define hand-held as butt-on-ground, the second shot at 200 yards should be within 3-4 yards: at that range I could hit a (somewhat used) tank with a 60mm mortar. Firing offhand (butt off ground) might well be much less accurate: I could only hit on about the fourth shot firing flat-trajectory with the 60, and that was will the spade still on the ground. I'd expect 50 yards would be reasonable... --dave Disclaimer: the 60mm mortar was about the only weapon I could hit anything with. People with normal reflexes may do better (:-)). -- David Collier-Brown, | davecb@Nexus.YorkU.CA | lethe!dave 72 Abitibi Ave., | Willowdale, Ontario, | Even cannibals don't usually eat their CANADA. 416-223-8968 | friends.
jeff@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (JEFF NANIS ) (03/18/91)
From: jeff@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu (JEFF NANIS ) tt.com> <1991Mar15.040459.10226@cbnews.att.com> Sender: nanis@ll.mit.edu Distribution: na Organization: JHU/APL, Laurel, MD Here's some empirical, anecdotal data: When I got to fire an M203 for familiarization back in '83, I fired at a M113 hulk at approximately 150 m. My first shot was ~15 m short, my second hit dead on.