shuee@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (DAVID W. SHUEE) (08/29/90)
From: "DAVID W. SHUEE" <shuee@venus.iucf.indiana.edu>
What sort of small arms would Joe G.I. be forced to use outside of issue
type weapons [ie. foreign weapons] when the shooting starts with Iraq? Let's
limit this to a range from side arm {pistols} to gpmg {no 12.7mm / 13mm class}.
The weapons need not be limited to captured, but may also include "friendly"
weapons.
For you folk's that want the simplfied version: What sort of gun could a GI
get for a bottle of Crown Royal ect. if he/she were stationed in Saudi?
Or what sort of foreign weapons should a GI in the Iraq crisis become better
informed on.
shuee@venus.iucf.indiana.edu
thanks,
Dave
shuee@venus.iucf.indiana.eduscott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) (03/05/91)
From: scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) I have a couple questions about some of the infantry weapons I've seen troops using in the GULF. I've noticed a few of the men in every squad are equiped with a grenade laucher mounted under the barrel of their M16. Would someone mind describing this weapon and it's uses in detail? For example, what is it's range, and what types of rounds can it fire? Is it normally loaded all the time? Does the grenade have a fairly flat trajectory, or is it lobbed like a short range mortar? How do they determine who gets to use one? Does it increase the weight of the rifle so that it becomes more unwieldly? Also, I noticed some scenes of British infantry scouting out an Iraqi bunker for hostiles ... they tossed in a grenade. They were carrying a very modern looking assault rifle that I've never seen before. It was sand colored and had the magazine (and I assume the firing mechanism) BEHIND the pistol grip. This makes the weapon somewhat short I assume. Can anyone explain what rifle this is? Is it standard issue now? When did they get it? How does it compare with the M16A2? Thank you. /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Scott Silvey | Message actually given by rn: | | scott@xcf.berkeley.edu | | | | "****** 33993 unread articles in comp.windows.x... | | Flames to /dev/null | ...read now? [ynq]" | \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
6600bwg@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Barney W. Greinke) (03/06/91)
From: 6600bwg@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Barney W. Greinke) Re-British rifle The rifle is the new UK rifle. It is a 5.56mm weapon in what is called a 'bullpup' configuration (clip behind the pistol grip). The 'bullpup' layout results in a decrease in weapon length of about 25% with (supposedly) no decrease in range or accuracy because the barrel length stays the same. The rifle was adopted about 2 or 3 years ago, I think. I'm not sure of its designation, but I think it's something like L2A1 or some such. For those interested, small arms have basically had no major technological advances in the last 100 years!!! The standard assault rifle layout has been in existence since at least 1890. The only major improvements have been the incorporation of lighter modern materials (plastics, aluminum), and a decrease in ammunition size (it is argued that more wounding rounds is better than fewer lethal rounds, also volume of fire is extremely important in firefight-maneuver situations). On the horizon are several new small arms technologies, such as caseless ammunition (Heckler & Koch will send you wonderful literature on their G11), flechette ammunition, lockless mechanisms, etc. Why could the Afghan guerrillas fight against a modern, well equipped army? One reason was that when it came to men shooting men, it was an even match (AK-74 vs. 70 year old Enfields). BWG
ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.OZ.AU (Geoff Miller) (03/06/91)
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.OZ.AU (Geoff Miller) scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) writes: .... >Also, I noticed some scenes of British infantry scouting out an Iraqi bunker > for hostiles ... they tossed in a grenade. They were carrying a very modern > looking assault rifle that I've never seen before. It was sand colored > and had the magazine (and I assume the firing mechanism) BEHIND the pistol > grip. This makes the weapon somewhat short I assume. Can anyone explain > what rifle this is? Is it standard issue now? When did they get it? How > does it compare with the M16A2? That would be the SA80, which is now standard UK issue. The current fashion in service rifles seems to be a bull-pup design, firing the 5.56mm cartridge. The UK (SA80) and France (FAMAS) both went for indigenous designs, but much of the rest of the non-Kalashnikov world has gone for the Steyr AUG. There have been a number of problems with the development of the SA80, as with any new rifle, and if you can get access to back numbers of UK magazines such as "Target Gun" or "Handgunner" you'll find some good write-ups on it. Geoff Miller (ghm@cc.adfa.oz.au) Computer Centre, Australian Defence Force Academy
al76188@tut.fi (Lahtinen Antti Jussi) (03/06/91)
From: al76188@tut.fi (Lahtinen Antti Jussi) > I've noticed a few of the men in every squad are equiped with a grenade > laucher mounted under the barrel of their M16. That grenade launcher is M203 or M203Pi. M203 is attached under the barrel, and M203Pi (Product Improved) has an optional plastic stock and can also be used as a separete weapon. M203 weights roughly 1.4 kg and fires 40 mm grenades. I am not sure about the trajectory of the grenade, but it should be flat enough to fire streigth up to 100 m. Indirect range should be about 400 m. The individual grenades weight about 0.3 kg each and there is at least HE, HEDP and smoke rounds available. Grenade launcher have been around since Vietnam, the first was M79 Blooper. M203 is not the only GL around. In Germany they use H&K 69 launcher that uses the same ammunition as M203. Soviet army uses a muzzle-loading GL, but it has shorter range than M203. Grenade launchers combine the qualities of a hand grenade and rocket launcher. It is like a hand grenade that can be launched by pressing a trigger and explodes on contact. >>British infantry... They were carrying a very modern looking assault rifle >>that I've never seen before. It was sand colored and had the magazine (and >>I assume the firing mechanism) BEHIND the pistol grip. This rifle is IW (Infantry Weapon). It has the bulpup configuration in which the firing mechanism is located behand pistol grip (or actually, the pistol grip is relocated in front of the magazine and the butt is deleted). This configuration makes the weapon shorter and easier to handle. The total lenght of a bulpup rifle is the lenght of the original rifle minus the stock. IW has been standard issue for couple of years now. There is a support weapon version of IW available, the LSW (Light Suppert Weapon) that has heavier barrel and a bipod. I have not heard any significant complains anout IW. It is a well made rifle and seems to be performing well. However, it does not have the three-shot burst capability as M16A2 has. +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+ : Antti Lahtinen : "Justice is Only a Whish of a Weak" : : al76188@tut.fi : - Warhammer 40.000 :
major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (03/06/91)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) >I've noticed a few of the men in every squad are equiped with a grenade laucher >mounted under the barrel of their M16. Would someone mind describing this >weapon and it's uses in detail? For example, what is it's range, and what >types of rounds can it fire? Is it normally loaded all the time? Does the >grenade have a fairly flat trajectory, or is it lobbed like a short range >mortar? How do they determine who gets to use one? Does it increase the >weight of the rifle so that it becomes more unwieldly? That's the M203 Rifle/Grenade Lchr. The basic use is to provide a means to 'toss' hand grenades further than a man can toss one. The round is a 40mm fragmentary grenade; High Explosive Dual Purpose can penetrate 2 inches of armor plate and is used against light vehicles and troops. CS contains tear gas. White Star Parachute Flare for illumination and signaling. Star Cluster (red, white, green) for signalling. Smoke (red, yellow, green) for signalling. Effective range is 400 meters. The HE round has a 5m bursting radius. The basic load for a Grenadier is 140 rounds of 40mm, and 36 rounds of M16 ammo. Most Grenadiers do not move around with the launcher loaded - but chamber a round as necessary. "Lock and load" is an order from the Squad Leader - not given unitl you cross the LD. the launcher 'lobs' the grenade to the target, more like a mortar than flat trajectory. The launcher itself is a single shot, breech-loaded, pump-action. It's used to suppress and/or neutralize targets that are in dead spaces of grazing fire weapons (from my squad leader's handbook). Weight of the M203 is 11 pounds as compared to a M16 at 8 pounds. The M60 MG weighs 44 pounds. By TO&E a mech inf squad has two M203 grenade launchers (GL). An 11-man full strength squad (full strength is rare) consists of a Carrier Team (remain with the Bradley IFV) and a Manuever Team (on the ground, guys, hit it!). Manuever Team: Carrier Team: Squad Leader M16 Team Leader/Gunner 30mm gun Machine Gunner M60 Driver M2 .50 grease gun Team Leader M16 TOW Gunner TOW ATGM Grenadier M203 Machine Gunner M60 Grenadier M203 Rifleman M16 Rifleman M16 By comparison, a soviet-stype BMP squad consists of: Motorized Rifle Squad: Vehicle Crew: Squad Leader AKMS Commander AKMS Machine Gunner PK Gunner 23mm/AT-4 Machine Gunner PK Driver Pistol Rifleman AKMS Rifleman AKMS Rifleman AKMS Rifleman AKMS AT Gunner RPG-7 In non-infantry TO&Es the mix of M203 per M16 is based on Standard Tables of Allowances, ie, for every 10 M16s you get one M203. Yes, it's heavy. But the soldiers that carry it and use it - like it. (Everyone wants to carry a pistol in peacetime - but let the shooting begin and everybody grabs for a rifle.) mike schmitt
rogersh@cs.man.ac.uk (rogersh) (03/07/91)
From: rogersh <t3e!rogersh@cs.man.ac.uk (Huw J. Rogers)> In article <1991Mar4.212601.9682@cbnews.att.com> scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) writes: > > >From: scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) >Also, I noticed some scenes of British infantry scouting out an Iraqi bunker > for hostiles ... they tossed in a grenade. They were carrying a very modern > looking assault rifle that I've never seen before. It was sand colored > and had the magazine (and I assume the firing mechanism) BEHIND the pistol > grip. This makes the weapon somewhat short I assume. Can anyone explain > what rifle this is? Is it standard issue now? When did they get it? How > does it compare with the M16A2? > The rifle is a SA80. The position of the mag. makes the barrel longer than that of a M16A2 (and the rifle more accurate) but the overall length shorter. It has a hardened optical sight as standard, with a variable luminosity internal indicator for night usage. The rifle takes NATO standard ammo/mag.s (same as M16A2 I think but I may be wrong). It has fully auto and semi auto modes, and is the first standard issue British Army *rifle* to have full auto, succeeding as it does the SLR which was a modified Belgian FN FAL with only semi auto. I think it's made by Royal Ordnance at Enfield, which is a privatised company which was govt. owned until the mid 80s. It has been issued to all regular units, and most TA and Cadet units as far as I know. There is a standard version, and an extended barrel version with tripod which is the new ground support weapon. The latter version has been heavily criticised since the perception is that ground support weapons need belt fed ammo or v. large capacity magazines. 30 rounds get used up fast... Another criticism is that M16 ammo is too light, the old SLR with it's 7.62mm ammo packed a much harder punch (like Kalashnikovs I think), and could e.g. take an arm/head off in one shot at long range. Accuracy is about the same (SLR compared to SA80 - as I mention above accuracy is a *lot* better than the M16A2). The rifle is very butt heavy because as you guess the mechanism is all behind the mag. and in the butt, however this makes it very compact. Soldiers initially complained that it was difficult to shoulder as a result, but this seems to have been a temporary acclimatisation problem. There were some stories that it fell apart/discharged if dropped from a height (in one particular report one was dropped out of a hovering chopper on exercise and discharged causing injury), even if the safety was on. Later (current) versions corrected these problems. [ H.J.Rogers (INTERNET: rogersh%p4%cs.man.ac.uk@cunyvm.cuny.edu) ] [ ,_, (BITNET/EARN: rogersh%p4%cs.man.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET) ] [ :-(_)-o (UUCP: ...!uunet!cunyvm.cuny.edu!cs.man.ac.uk!p4!rogersh) ] [ _} {_ (JANET: rogersh%p4@uk.ac.man.cs) ]
dragoo@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Stephen P. Dragoo) (03/07/91)
From: dragoo@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Stephen P. Dragoo) In article <1991Mar4.212601.9682@cbnews.att.com> scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) writes: >I have a couple questions about some of the infantry weapons I've seen troops > using in the GULF. >I've noticed a few of the men in every squad are equiped with a grenade laucher > mounted under the barrel of their M16. Would someone mind describing this > weapon and it's uses in detail? For example, what is it's range, and what > types of rounds can it fire? Is it normally loaded all the time? Does the > grenade have a fairly flat trajectory, or is it lobbed like a short range > mortar? How do they determine who gets to use one? Does it increase the > weight of the rifle so that it becomes more unwieldly? That is the M?(sorry--can't remember exact number, but in 200's range) Grenade launcher. It has about a400-yard+ effective range, and fires standard 40mm grenades that were originally developed for the M79 shotgun-type launcher. It dos increase the weight, but since the M16 is lightweight anyway, it shouldn't be too bad. It would normally be loaded(if you've got 2 seconds to get one off, you don't take the time to load it then.) For short ranges, it has a flat trajectory, but it also has a sight for long ranges. I would assume that the person gets picked randomly. >Also, I noticed some scenes of British infantry scouting out an Iraqi bunker > for hostiles ... they tossed in a grenade. They were carrying a very modern > looking assault rifle that I've never seen before. It was sand colored > and had the magazine (and I assume the firing mechanism) BEHIND the pistol > grip. This makes the weapon somewhat short I assume. Can anyone explain > what rifle this is? Is it standard issue now? When did they get it? How > does it compare with the M16A2? That is the L85 Individual Weapon. It is designed "Bullpup" fashion, with the magazine and ejector located behind the handgrip. This reduces the length of the rifle, making it easier for mechanized and airbourne troops to carry. This also makes it easier to carry and aim, because of the length and weight. It's of 4.85mm caliber, and the cartridge is almost the same size as the SS 109 NATO rifle. Ballistically, it performs similarly, and has a high muzzle velocity. -- =============================================================================== mail all flames to wyang@hpuxa.acs.ohio-state.edu--(its not me, but he wo n' complain...much...) "I know this ship like th' back o' my hand...KLONK!" Montgomery Scott, STV "Your new pledge name is...Pinto! Why Pinto? Why Not!?" Bluto and Kroger
IA80024%MAINE.BITNET@VM1.gatech.edu (Nicholas C. Hester) (03/08/91)
From: Nicholas C. Hester <IA80024%MAINE.BITNET@VM1.gatech.edu> In article <1991Mar4.212601.9682@cbnews.att.com>, scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) says: > >I've noticed a few of the men in every squad are equiped with a grenade >laucher > mounted under the barrel of their M16. Would someone mind describing this > weapon and it's uses in detail? For example, what is it's range, and what > types of rounds can it fire? Is it normally loaded all the time? Does the > grenade have a fairly flat trajectory, or is it lobbed like a short range > mortar? How do they determine who gets to use one? Does it increase the > weight of the rifle so that it becomes more unwieldly? This weapon is called the M203 40mm Grenade Launcher. Description: The 40mm grenade launcher, M203, is a lightweight, single-shot, breech loaded, pump action (sliding barrel), shoulder fired weapon attached to the M16/M16A1 rifle. It consists of a handguard and sight assembly group, receiver assembly, quadrant sight assembly, and barrel assembly. Data: Weapon - Length of launcher ... 15 5/16 in. Length of barrel ... 12 in. Weight unloaded ... ~3 lb. Weight loaded ... ~3.5 lb. Weight loaded (w/ M16) ... ~11 lb. Trigger pull ... 5 lb. Ammunition - Caliber ... 40mm Weight ... ~8 oz. Operational characteristics - Action ... Pump Max Range ... ~400 m Max effective range (area targets) ... 350 m Max effective range (point target) ... 150 m Minimum safe firing ranges (HE and TP) Training ... 80 m Combat ... 31 m Ammunition Description: The 40mm cartridge is a fixed-type muniton which consists of two major assemblies, the cartridge case ans projectile. To propel the grenade requires a High-Low propulsion system which functions as follows: When the firing pin strikes the primer, the primer flash ignites the propellant which is contained within the brass powder-charge cup inside the high pressure chamber. The burning propellant creates a pressure of 35,000 pounds per square inch within the high pressure chamber, causing the brass powder-charge cup to rupture, the gases flow into the low pressure chamber (interior portion of the cartridge case). As the gases enter the larger chamber area, the pressure is reduced to 3,000 psi, which is suf- ficient to propel the projectile through the barrel and to the target. The grenade leaves the barrel of the launcher with a muzzle velocity of 250 fps and a right-hand spin of 37,000 rpm. The spin stablizes the grenade during the flight and provides rotational forces necessary to arm the fuze. There are five standard "A" types of 40mm ammunition for use with the launcher: a) High Explosive (HE) b) High Explosive Airburst (HE Airburst) c) High Explosive Smokeless and Flashless d) High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) e) Training-Practice (TP) Also, there are Illuminating and Smoke rounds. (Sources : Field Manual 40mm Grenade Launchers M203 and M79, Small Arms of the World, 12th edition) * * * * * * >Also, I noticed some scenes of British infantry scouting out an Iraqi bunker > for hostiles ... they tossed in a grenade. They were carrying a very modern > looking assault rifle that I've never seen before. It was sand colored > and had the magazine (and I assume the firing mechanism) BEHIND the pistol > grip. This makes the weapon somewhat short I assume. Can anyone explain > what rifle this is? Is it standard issue now? When did they get it? How > does it compare with the M16A2? This is the British Enfield Weapon System SA80. It replaces the older and larger SLR L1A1. It is a "bullpup" configuration that places the magazine behind the trigger allowing the whole firing mechanism and barrel to be placed back further in the rifle. This makes for a compact and handy weapon, especially in confined spaces, ie. bunkers, buildings, tanks. The SA80 also uses an optical sight called the SUSAT (Sight Unit, Small Arms Trilux) giving a 4x magnification. The pointer within is dark in daylight, but is illuminated in low light using a radioactive Trilux lamp. The rifle is selective fire with 'R' for Repetition (single shot) or 'A' for automatic. It has no burst option. Origninally chambered in 4.85 x 49, it was rechambered for 5.56 NATO. It is operated by a conventional gas-operating system locked by a multi-lug rotatat- ing bolt engaging corresponding recesses in a barrel collar. This bolt and it's bolt carrier are similar in design to that of the Armalite AR-18. Data: Operation ..... Gas/ select fire Weight, loaded ..... 9.1 lb. / ~5 kg Length ..... 30.3 in / ~770 cm Length, barrel ..... 20.4 in Magazine ..... 30 box magazine Sight ..... Optical, 4x Cartridge ..... 5.56 NATO Effective range ..... ~500 m (Sources: Small Arms of the World, 12 ed. ; Soldier of Fortune magazine, Sept 1987) *** go ahead and laugh, but SOF has some good weapons articles *** Nicholas C. Hester | | ia80024@Maine.Bitnet | Fahrvergnugen: "I've fallen, and I can't get up" | ia80024@Maine.Maine.edu | |
aag@compsci.aberystwyth.ac.uk (03/08/91)
From: aag@compsci.aberystwyth.ac.uk In article 8677 of sci.military: scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) comments: > I noticed some scenes of British infantry scouting out an Iraqi bunker > for hostiles ... they tossed in a grenade. They were carrying a > very modern looking assault rifle that I've never seen before. It > was sand colored and had the magazine (and I assume the firing > mechanism) BEHIND the pistol grip. This makes the weapon somewhat > short I assume. Can anyone explain what rifle this is? Is it > standard issue now? When did they get it? How does it compare > with the M16A2? Its the standard Army issue Enfield SA80 (Bullpup) 5.65mm combat rifle. After extensive testing in the late seventies and early eighties (every so often a picture would show up on the news or in a science and technology programme of a squaddie in Belfast or at Bisley with something that was not a 7.62 FN-FAL wearing a very _worried_ expression), the Army chose it to replace the FN-FAL and it was introduced in about 1985 and has now completely replaced the FAL. Its said to be a very nice rifle indeed, although it has caused horrible problems with drill wherever it goes. Its considerably shorter than the FAL and its butt doesn't reach the ground in "Stand at Ease", so the Army had to rewrite the drill book. I suspect that the sand colouring was masking tape as the examples I've seen have tended to be either uniformly grey/black or green/black camo in colour. As for comparison with the M16A2, well, we didn't buy it . . . Angela E aag@aber.cs (UK) \S Ms A M Gilham \V M aag@cs.aber.ac.uk (inet)\N Dept of Computer Science \O +44 A ...!mcsun!ukc!aber-cs-aag\A University College of Wales,\I 970 622449 I (uucp) \I Aberyswyth, Dyfed. \C L \L SY23 3BZ. UK \E
tkogoma%hydra.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) (03/08/91)
From: tkogoma%hydra.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) My understanding has it that the designation of the new British 'bullpup' configuration assault rifle is the "L85". I have heard that an automatic rifle version (heavier barrel, integral bipod, belt or clip fed) is the "L86". However, I havn't seen it in any of the videotape shown so far. The Grenade launcher attached to the M16 is (I believe) the M203. It fires 40mm grenades with a (relatively) flat trajectory. I read somehwere that they were issued two to a squad. -- Capt. Gym Z. Quirk net.terrorist (reformed) | This space tkogoma@triton.unm.edu | intentionally (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | left blank
mjw5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Weseman) (03/13/91)
From: mjw5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Weseman) In a previous article, scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) says: > > >From: scott@swindle.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Silvey) > >I have a couple questions about some of the infantry weapons I've seen troops > using in the GULF. > >I've noticed a few of the men in every squad are equiped with a grenade laucher > mounted under the barrel of their M16. Would someone mind describing this > weapon and it's uses in detail? For example, what is it's range, and what > types of rounds can it fire? Is it normally loaded all the time? Does the > grenade have a fairly flat trajectory, or is it lobbed like a short range > mortar? How do they determine who gets to use one? Does it increase the > weight of the rifle so that it becomes more unwieldly? That is called the M-203 (M-16/40mm. grenade launcher). It can be fired directly and/or indirectly. You can fire smoke, HE, and even armor-piercing; I have even heard of a flechette round that makes it an over-sized shotgun. Normally a platoon will have 1 or 2 in it's ranks; don't quote me on that. My info. doesn't get into the specific trajectories of the individual rounds, Sorry. >Also, I noticed some scenes of British infantry scouting out an Iraqi bunker > for hostiles ... they tossed in a grenade. They were carrying a very modern > looking assault rifle that I've never seen before. It was sand colored > and had the magazine (and I assume the firing mechanism) BEHIND the pistol > grip. This makes the weapon somewhat short I assume. Can anyone explain > what rifle this is? Is it standard issue now? When did they get it? How > does it compare with the M16A2? It is known as the SA-80 system or more commonly referred to as the "Enfield Weapon System." There is the L85A1 Individual Weapon (Endeavour), and the larger L86A1 Light Support Weapon (Engager). They both fire the standard 5.56 NATO round, and the "bullpup" configuration was used for compactness. The L86A1 LSW has a bipod, and is comparable (in its role) to our M249 Squad Automatic Weapon. I haven't heard about any comparisons between the L85A1 and the M-16A2. They both began to be issued to the regular British troops in 1987. Oh, by the way, the L85A1 is fitted with a standard optical sight, but can mount a variety of day/night scopes. -- Michael J. Weseman | Michelson 540 | "He commands qwack legions fwom Cadet Fourth Class |(The Officer's Club)| Wome."--Gov. of Jerusalem talking A.F.R.O.T.C. |Case Western Reserve| to the masses of his good friend Det. 660, Akron U. | University | "Bigus Dickus" from Rome. MP,L.O.B
cassman@athena.mit.edu (Baby Killer) (03/14/91)
From: cassman@athena.mit.edu (Baby Killer)
H.J.Rogers writes:
# tripod which is the new ground support weapon. The latter version has been
# heavily criticised since the perception is that ground support weapons
# need belt fed ammo or v. large capacity magazines. 30 rounds get used
# up fast... Another criticism is that M16 ammo is too light, the old SLR
# with it's 7.62mm ammo packed a much harder punch (like Kalashnikovs I
# think), and could e.g. take an arm/head off in one shot at long range.
# Accuracy is about the same (SLR compared to SA80 - as I mention above
# accuracy is a *lot* better than the M16A2). The rifle is very butt heavy
I would like to put in my two cents regarding small arms for ground troops.
First, regarding belt-fed guns and large capacity magazines:
An ordinary soldier is not going to be given huge/heavy belts
of ammo to carry and the relatively large/heavy gun to shoot
them. Also, 30 round magazines are about at the safe limit for
infantry rifles because they force the soldiers to give their
guns a "rest" after every magazine. The heat generated at
full-auto is enormous and can ruin a rifle easily.
Second, regarding M16 ammo:
The M16 uses the 5.56mm round (.223 caliber). This round is far
less effective in terms of penetration, killing effectiveness,
etc. than the old 7.62x51 NATO round (.308 caliber). While the
7.62x51 would be excellent for hunting deer or elk, the 5.56
is more of a varmint rifle. The AKs use the 7.62x39 Russian
round which is somewhere in between the other two rounds. I
believe that the Russian round would be the best trade-off
between effectiveness and lack of recoil if only the ammo
were manufactured with quality components as the 5.56 and the
7.62x51 are. The 5.56 was chosen by the US military because
it is light weight (can carry lots o' rounds), the rifle that
shoots it is light, and the recoil is low. Incidentally, the
only one of the 3 cartridges mentioned that even comes close
to being able to "rip an arm off" is the 7.62x51. Of course
the military guys know that if you wound someone then 3 people
have to take care of him, but if you kill him then 1 person
will bury him. The 5.56 wounds just fine.
Third, regarding full-auto:
Full-auto fire has very limited uses. You don't want your ground
troops spraying their limited ammo in the air - that is what the
M60s and M2s are for. Three-round bursts are even of questionable
effectiveness compared to semi-auto fire.
Can you tell that I am a rec.guns guy?
----------------------------------------------------------
...and then the blood returned to my brain...
---------------------------------------------------------paulf@mcnc.org (Paul Damian Franzon) (03/14/91)
From: paulf@mcnc.org (Paul Damian Franzon) > >From: tkogoma%hydra.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk) >My understanding has it that the designation of the new British >'bullpup' configuration assault rifle is the "L85". I have heard that When the Australin Army introduced the Austrian Steyr (also based on the Bullpup principle) they had to redefine the shooting score required to qualify as a marksman. Too many recruits were qualifying for a marksman badge on their first day at the rifle range! Paul Franzon "Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do or die." If that is what my employer expects of me, then being responsible for my opinions is the least I can expect in return.
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (03/18/91)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: cassman@athena.mit.edu (Baby Killer) > Full-auto fire has very limited uses. You don't want your ground > troops spraying their limited ammo in the air - that is what the > M60s and M2s are for. Three-round bursts are even of questionable > effectiveness compared to semi-auto fire. This depends very much on what they are supposed to be effectively doing, and in particular on whether your model of infantry combat is "ready... aim... fire!" or "OhMyGodAnAmbushFireFireFire!!!". The former is the standard model for the US Army's management in particular, while the latter is now known to be far more typical of real combat. In real combat, full auto saves lives. As one of the Korean War generals -- I've forgotten who -- observed in connection with artillery, the more ammunition you ship to the front, the fewer body bags come back. -- "But this *is* the simplified version | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology for the general public." -S. Harris | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry