v078jq2q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel J Fulmer) (03/05/91)
From: v078jq2q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel J Fulmer) Here's a question maybe someone out there can clear up for me. In the U.S. Armed Forces....when does a higher-ranking officer have to salute a lower-ranking officer first. I know if the l-r officer is a CMH recipient or at the cerimony when the l-r officer is receiving an accomadation. Any other reasons you can think of ? thanks......
major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (03/06/91)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: v078jq2q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel J Fulmer) > Here's a question maybe someone out there can clear up for me. > In the U.S. Armed Forces..when does a higher-ranking officer have to salute a > lower-ranking officer first. I know if the l-r officer is a CMH recipient or > at the cerimony when the l-r officer is receiving an accomadation. Any other > reasons you can think of ? As a general rule - never. And saluting a Medal of Honor recipient is an urban warfare legend. The junior always salutes the senior first - and holds the salute until returned by the senior. Sometimes, like with a chief warrant officer - you got to be really fast to get your answering salute up and down before the warrant's is down. :-) Sorry, after an officer receives a commendation (or something) he salutes the senior first. (I'll guess - in the Navy - a senior 'salutes' the OOD when he comes on board - but he's really saluting the Captain's direct representative - in effect - saluting the Captain - good guess?) On parade, the commander-of-troops (senior officer on parade) will present the command and salute the Reviewing Officer who could in fact be junior. However, Drill & Ceremonies Manuals simply dictate, "The Commander-of-Troops will salute the Reviewing Officer" - so rank is no a factor. (That happened to me once - as a major commander-of-troops of my battalion on a retreat parade for a retiring Captain.) Trivia: The junior always walks on the left of the senior. The origin of 'lieutenant' come from 'left attendant'. In the "old days", once an officer drew his sword (usually right-handed) his right was, of course, protected by his sword. However, his left was unprotected - therefore a "left attendant" was required to protect his left. mike schmitt "Your outta step, Major!" "Yes, Sir, no excuse sir."
cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) (03/08/91)
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) In article <1991Mar6.042927.25702@cbnews.att.com> bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) writes: >... > Trivia: The junior always walks on the left of the senior. The origin > of 'lieutenant' come from 'left attendant'. In the "old days", once an > officer drew his sword (usually right-handed) his right was, of course, > protected by his sword. However, his left was unprotected - therefore > a "left attendant" was required to protect his left. That's a nice story, and may be true for the English "leftenant". However, the American "lieutenant" comes from the French, and means "someone who acts instead (or in the place of) another" (lieu = instead of; tenant = one who holds). Who does the lieutenant act for? Why, the capitain, I guess :*) -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. | Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) |cash@convex.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mjw5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Weseman) (03/13/91)
From: mjw5@po.CWRU.Edu (Michael J. Weseman) In a previous article, v078jq2q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel J Fulmer) says: > > >From: v078jq2q@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Daniel J Fulmer) > > >Here's a question maybe someone out there can clear up for me. > >In the U.S. Armed Forces....when does a higher-ranking officer have to salute a >lower-ranking officer first. I know if the l-r officer is a CMH recipient or >at the cerimony when the l-r officer is receiving an accomadation. Any other >reasons you can think of ? Yes, I can think of one. There maybe a time when an officer who is of higher rank than another officer, but the lower ranking officer is in charge of a department that the higher ranking officer is working in. When asked to report to the department head, the higher-ranking officer WOULD have to report as ordered just like any other time. Anytime the higher-ranking officer dealt with the lower-ranking officer during their jobs, then the department head would be in charge even though s/he is of the subordinate rank. That is the only one I could think of. I think we discussed it in one of our ROTC classes. [mod.note: I think that about covers military etiquette for now. - Bill] Michael J. Weseman | Michelson 540 | "He commands qwack legions fwom Cadet Fourth Class |(The Officer's Club)| Wome."--Gov. of Jerusalem talking A.F.R.O.T.C. |Case Western Reserve| to the masses of his good friend Det. 660, Akron U. | University | "Bigus Dickus" from Rome. MP,L.O.B
magnus%thep.lu.se@Urd.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) (03/14/91)
From: magnus%thep.lu.se@Urd.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) In article <1991Mar8.023526.10578@cbnews.att.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: >From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) >That's a nice story, and may be true for the English "leftenant". However, >the American "lieutenant" comes from the French, and means "someone who >acts instead (or in the place of) another" (lieu = instead of; tenant = one >who holds). This also explains the ranks of lieutenant general and lieutenant colonel - the officers who act for the general and the colonel, respectively. Magnus Olsson | \e+ /_ Dept. of Theoretical Physics | \ Z / q University of Lund, Sweden | >----< Internet: magnus@thep.lu.se | / \===== g Bitnet: THEPMO@SELDC52 | /e- \q
dth@shark.cis.ufl.edu (David Hightower) (03/14/91)
From: dth@shark.cis.ufl.edu (David Hightower) In article <1991Mar8.023526.10578@cbnews.att.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: > [stuff deleted about the junior officer walking on the left] That's also true for the US Military as well. I served 4 years in the Army, and I'm being commissioned into the Air Force in May; throughout all my training it has always been taught that the junior person walks on the left of the senior. The reasons given by Peter Cash are the traditional ones. Dave _________________________________________________________________________ Dave Hightower | opinion? I'm allowed to have an opinion? dth@cis.ufl.edu | well, if I DID have one, it'd be mine, all mine! --------------------------------------------------------------------------
cramer@uunet.UU.NET (Clayton Cramer) (03/14/91)
From: optilink!cramer@uunet.UU.NET (Clayton Cramer) In article <1991Mar8.023526.10578@cbnews.att.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: > In article <1991Mar6.042927.25702@cbnews.att.com> bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) writes: > >... > That's a nice story, and may be true for the English "leftenant". However, > the American "lieutenant" comes from the French, and means "someone who > acts instead (or in the place of) another" (lieu = instead of; tenant = one > who holds). > > Who does the lieutenant act for? Why, the capitain, I guess :*) There's a bit of a story to this, of course. Before the rise of the modern European army, the captain (for a company) or colonel (for a regiment) acquired that rank by having the financial resources to uniform and equip his men. This tradition persisted in the U.S. right up to the Civil War for militias and volunteer regiments. (Our Regular Army, tiny though it was, was one of the first armies in the world where promotion through the ranks was largely based on merit, not on political connection -- though you still needed to be from the right family to get into the officer ranks at the beginning of the Republic. The British Army started to replace family with merit as a basis for promotion because of the disasters in the Crimean War). When Louis XIV professionalized the French Army, making it one of the first modern national armies, he was in a difficult situation. He couldn't offend all the minor nobility who were captains and colonels, but were insufficiently competent to command in battle. Instead, he inserted "lieutenants" and "lieutenant colonels" into the companies and regiments, and allowed the captains and colonels to wear their nice uniforms, ride their beautiful horses, and continue to pay some bills, while still having a professional officer corps. -- Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid,pixar,tekbspa}!optilink!cramer Fabian socialism crossed with wealth gives the current system: Fabian fascism. ====================================================================== You must be kidding! No company would hold opinions like mine!
olsen@masala.LCS.MIT.EDU (James Olsen) (03/14/91)
From: olsen@masala.LCS.MIT.EDU (James Olsen) >>The origin of 'lieutenant' come from 'left attendant'... >That's a nice story, and may be true for the English "leftenant". However, >the American "lieutenant" comes from the French, and means "someone who >acts instead (or in the place of) another"... Well, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, both usages stem from the French 'lieu'='place' and 'tenant'='holder'. The rank was sometimes called lieutenant-captain, clearly indicating that the lieutenant was acting as the captain's surrogate. This parallels the current lieutenant-colonel and lieutenant-general ranks. (The origin of the English 'leftenant' pronunciation is a bit obscure, and might be due to medieval Englishmen mishearing the French pronunciation.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- My curiosity having been piqued, I have come up with thumbnail derivations of the other main rank names still in common use: Private, from Latin privatus [withdrawn from public life and public office]: a soldier who holds no office (i.e., not an officer or NCO). Corporal, from Italian corpo [body]: a soldier who leads a body of troops. Sergeant, from Latin servientem [servant]: a soldier who attends to a knight in battle. Lieutenant, see above. Captain, from Latin capitanus [chief]: a military leader. Major, from French major [short for sergeant-major]: an officer next superior to a captain. 'sergeant-major' could, at various times, denote a rank as high as major-general today. Colonel, from Italian colonnella [little column]: officer leading the little column of troops at the head of a regiment. General, from Latin generalis [pertaining to an entire class or kind]: the officer commanding the entire army. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's interesting to note that some ranks (such as private) are essentially unchanged over the centuries, while others (such as sergeant) have varied enormously.
carlson@haven.mitre.org (Bruce Carlson) (03/15/91)
From: carlson@haven.mitre.org (Bruce Carlson) >From: magnus%thep.lu.se@Urd.lth.se (Magnus Olsson) >In article <1991Mar8.023526.10578@cbnews.att.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: >>From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) >>the American "lieutenant" comes from the French, and means "someone who >>acts instead (or in the place of) another" (lieu = instead of; tenant = one >>who holds). >This also explains the ranks of lieutenant general and lieutenant colonel - >the officers who act for the general and the colonel, respectively. > >Magnus Olsson | \e+ /_ This rationale holds true for lieutenant colonel, but it is slightly different for generals. The origin of major general and lieutenant general is supposedly this: "Major" General - 2 star (major general) "Lieutenant Colonel" General - 3 star (lieutenant general) At least this is a plausible explanation for why a lieutenant [general] outranks a major [general]. Bruce Carlson
mp3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Francis Polis) (03/19/91)
From: Michael Francis Polis <mp3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> > "Major" General - 2 star (major general) > "Lieutenant Colonel" General - 3 star (lieutenant general) I believe the terms have their origins in Cromwell's New Model Army. A liuetenant general was a lieutenant to the commander-in-chief, and outranked the major (or sergeant major) general. "The third officer in rank was the major-general, or sergeant-major-general. ... The sergeant-major-general was the commander of all the infantry of the army, and was sometimes styled the major-general of the foot. One of the functions of the major-general was the drawing up of the army on the field of battle. To draw up an army in the elaborately formal battle array recommended by military writers of the time required great technical skill, and the major-general was usually a veteran of long experience. ..." - C.H. Firth, _Cromwell's Army_, p 61, New York, Barnes & Noble Inc.