mhr@compsci.aberystwyth.ac.uk (03/14/91)
From: mhr@compsci.aberystwyth.ac.uk Can anyone out there give me a complete, but not too technical list of the tanks built by the Soviets since the T72? (Types of gun, engine, armour etc.) I have heard of T80's, T86's and T90's, how many of these actually exist, and how many are the product of fertile imaginations? For instance, is the T80 just a T72 with reactive armour (as seen in the ITN footage of the recent unrest in Lithuania)? Or is it something else entirely? Thanks in advance. If it has been discussed before send email to the address below. Mike. E mhr@aber.cs (UK) \S Mike Richards \V M mhr@cs.aber.ac.uk (inet)\N Dept of Computer Science \O +44 A ...!mcsun!ukc!aber-cs!mhr\A University College of Wales,\I 970 622435 I (uucp) \I Aberyswyth, Dyfed. \C L \L SY23 3BZ. UK \E
rwsayer@phoenix.princeton.edu (Ronald W Sayer) (03/15/91)
From: rwsayer@phoenix.princeton.edu (Ronald W Sayer) Speaking of Soviet tanks, I read in the paper today that the USSR is moving 10,000 tanks and 20,000 artilliery pieces into storage somewhere in the Urals. This, I think, is either cheating, or using a loophole in the latest conventional arms treaty/reductions. Anyone know any details on this? Ron Sayer rwsayer@phoenix.princeton.edu
smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) (03/15/91)
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) In mhr@compsci.aberystwyth.ac.uk writes... > Can anyone out there give me a complete, but not too technical >list of the tanks built by the Soviets since the T72? (Types of gun, >engine, armour etc.) >From D. Isby's "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army": The T-80 may be the successor to the T-64, and includes many of the upgrades introduced during the latter's production: improved armour, smoke mortars, and a laser rangefinder. Its turret resembles that of the T-72M, however, while the engine is reported to be a turbine venting towards the rear. Placement and shape of the exhaust are consistent with a 900-980 hp turbine. .. A new suspension is intended to cure the T-64's noise and vibration problems at high speed.... There are probably two T-80 versions, both with the 125mm gun but one also being able to use the AT-8 Songster. ..Externally, the armour seems to be similar to that of the T-72M. According to US Congressional testimony, a new, even more advanced battle tank, designated Future Soviet Tank 1 (FST-1) by the US Army, is currently under development...The US Army predicts that the Soviet will introduce two new main battle tanks in the early 1990's. Improved protection is thought to be one of the main features of FST-1, being equivalent on the glacis to 700mm of rolled homogeneous armour, while top armour is equivalent to 80mm. ..there have since been reports that this tank, with stratified Chobham- type armour, appeared in Soviet service in...1986. The US Army expects FST-1 or the FST-2,...to be a 42-tonne design with a larger calibre -possibly 135mmm- gun and an improved engine. Other projected features include lasers and microwave radars capable of disrupting enemy sensors. A turretless design, also using the 135mm gun, has been reported.
em31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Eric Andrew Morgan) (03/18/91)
From: Eric Andrew Morgan <em31+@andrew.cmu.edu> The T-80 has been determined to be follow on to the T-64, the current Soviet Main Battle Tank. The T-72 is mainly exported, while the T-64 is not. A large portion of T-80 are armored with reactive armor. Any follow on tanks to the T-80 are currently unconfirmed. It is know that the Soviets are working on a new main battle tank. ---------------------------------------------------------- Eric Andrew Morgan Carnegie Mellon University The opinions expressed here are solely the product of my twisted mind and not the views of any government or private agency, however twisted. ----------------------------------------------------------
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (03/19/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> >From: Eric Andrew Morgan <em31+@andrew.cmu.edu> >The T-80 has been determined to be follow on to the T-64, the current >Soviet Main Battle Tank. The T-72 is mainly exported, while the T-64 is >not. A large portion of T-80 are armored with reactive armor. Any >follow on tanks to the T-80 are currently unconfirmed. It is know that >the Soviets are working on a new main battle tank. Sorry Eric, but I recall reading in "The Military Balance" that the T-72 is the most numerous tank in the Soviet Army. Also, the "T-80" per se, does not exist. The T-80 is really the T-74 and the only differences between the T-74 and the T-72 are that the T-74 has reactive armor (now retrofitted to many T-72's) and a laser rangefinder. "T-80" was a term created solely by the Reagan Administration in its sucessful quest to portray the Soviet Military to be at parity or an advantage with respect to our own. The real truth is that most of the Red Army's equipment is junk and we know it just as well as the Soviets do. If they didn't think that they were going to take horrendous losses due to superior enemy tanks and AT weapons, how come they retain over 23,000 T-54/55's and 14,000 T-62's? The only reason that the Soviets need as many as they do is their primary tactic is to throw division after division into direct frontal assaults against the enemy. I heard once that a Soviet tank or motor rifle division is expected by their doctrine to be combat effective for only two days before being totally wiped out. Oh well, so much for the 10,000-odd soldiers in the division. Also, if it is "unconfirmed" whether or not there is a follow on to the T-74/80, how can you say that "it is *know[n]* that the Soviets are working on a new main battle tank"? Allan "I'd rather have one M1A1 then ten T-74's" Bourdius ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Bourdius [MIDN 3/C (Marine Option)/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity] ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or Box 4719, 5125 Margaret Morrison St., Pgh., PA 15213 "Give, expecting nothing thereof." "Phi Kappa Theta, just the best."
em31+@andrew.cmu.edu (Eric Andrew Morgan) (03/20/91)
From: Eric Andrew Morgan <em31+@andrew.cmu.edu> >Sorry Eric, but I recall reading in "The Military Balance" that the T-72 >is the most numerous tank in the Soviet Army. Also, the "T-80" per se, >does not exist. The T-80 is really the T-74 and the only differences >between the T-74 and the T-72 are that the T-74 has reactive armor >(now >retrofitted to many T-72's) and a laser rangefinder. "T-80" was a term >created solely by the Reagan Administration in its sucessful quest to >portray the Soviet Military to be at parity or an advantage with respect >to our own. >Also, if it is "unconfirmed" whether or not there is a follow on to the >T-74/80, how can you say that "it is *know[n]* that the Soviets are >working on a new main battle tank"? Allan, I think you should check your sources a little more carefully before you post. My sources for the following are as follows: The Military Balance 1990-1991, Janes Armoured Vehicles 1990-1991, and The Soviet Army(an Army field manual, but I can't remember the number). 1.) Future Soviet Tank: According to Jane's, the USSR is known to be developing two new tanks. The consensus of opinion is that it will be armed with a 135mm smoothbore with a muzzle velocity greater than the current 125mm. 2.) The T-80: "It is now known that the T-80 is a further development of the T-64 and entered production in the early 1980s with the first units being equipped in 1984." (Jane's, pg68). The article goes on to describe the differences between the T-64 and the T-80, which are much more substantial than just reactive armor and a laser range finder. It was also said that as of 1987, "...over 2200 T-80s had been deployed with the Group of Soviet Forces Germany(GSFG), where they are issued to the 8th Guards Tank Army and the 1st Guards Tank Army. Total production of the T-80 is believed to have reached over 8000 vehicles with production continuing." (Janes, pg68). 3.) T-80s with reactive armor: Over half of the T-64s and T-80s in GSFG have been equipped with reactive armor. 4.) T-64 vs T-72: The T-64s and T-80s have not been exported, unlike the T-72. "In 1987 it was confirmed that the T-64 and the T-80 were the key MBTs with the Group of Soviet Forces Germany with three armies being equipped with the T-64A/T-64B(2nd Guards Army, 3rd Shock Army, and 20th Guards Army) and the other two with T-80s (8th Guards Army, and 1st Guards Tank Army), the former having 4000 T-64A/T-64Bs and the later 2200 T-80s." (Janes, pg71). If you look in the Military Balance you will see that T-80 is listed with a number ober 2000, and that the number of T-64s is only 300 less than T-72s. The T-72s are mainly sold to other nations, but are also used in some of the Soviet Armies in the Far East, or B-grade divisions all over. 5.) US vs Soviet MBTs: "The United States Army considers the M60A1 inferior to the T-72, the more recent M60A3 on a par with it and the new M1 superior to it." Yes, I would take an M1A1 over any Soviet Tank, but that does not make all Soviet tanks crap. The T-80 is an advanced and capable tank, and in the right hands it would be wrong to underestimate its power. Sure an M1A1 could take it out, or even a couple of them, but they have lots of them. 6.) Soviet Equip is Crap: I don't think we can completely discount most of Soviet equipment as shit. Yes, our stuff is superior, and yes, the the T-54/55s and T-62s are completely outdated. But that does not mean that all Soviet Equipment is crap. The T-80 is a good tank, the MIG-29 is acknowledged by Western pilots are an impressive airplane, and some Soviet Naval units are extremely capable. The recent victory over Iraq who was using Soviet equipment should be taken with a grain of salt. In most cases, they had the old shit, and second, they weren't trained for shit. Part of the superiority of the US Armed Forces is in training, not just equipment. Since my fingers are tired, I'll sign off now. ---------------------------------------------------------- Eric Andrew Morgan Cognitive Science Major Carnegie Mellon University
smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) (03/20/91)
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) In ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) writes... /Sorry Eric, but I recall reading in "The Military Balance" that the T-72 /is the most numerous tank in the Soviet Army. Also, the "T-80" per se, /does not exist. The T-80 is really the T-74 What is the T-74 and where did you read about it?
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (03/22/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
>What is the T-74 and where did you read about it?
Take a look at both "The Myth of Soviet Military Supremacy" by Tom
Gervasi and his annotated and corrected version of the DoD's "Soviet
Military Power."
Allan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan Bourdius [MIDN 3/C (Marine Option)/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity]
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or Box 4719, 5125 Margaret Morrison St., Pgh., PA 15213
"My men can eat their belts, but my tanks gotta have gas." --Patton
Anything controversial in this post/mail are my own opinions, got it?!