major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (03/01/91)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: cos00119@dcsc.dla.mil (LCDR Harry A. Deamer) > General Schwarzkopf is the Commander-in-Chief of the U. S. Central Command. As > the CINC, he commands _all_ American forces in theater not just Army, or > ground forces. True, in addition, Schwarzkopf is the top commander of all coalition forces. One of his 'second in command' is a Saudi prince - lieutenant general something-or-other. So, in fact that would make Schwarzkopf, Supreme Allied Commander (SAC) - a title used by SAC-Europe (SACEUR) - a US 4-star in Belgium. However, I don't believe the title "SAC" has ever been attributed to Schwarzkopf. But, it really doesn't matter what title he uses - he's done a magnificent job! mike schmitt
emery@aries.mitre.org (David Emery) (03/05/91)
From: emery@aries.mitre.org (David Emery) <slightly off the beaten track, but following up to recent sci.military discussions... dave> According to the radio (NPR) last night, there are several congressmen proposing special rewards for Schwartzkopf and Powell. One idea is a congressional gold medal. D'Amato (R-NY) has even called for Powell and Schwartzkopf to be promoted to 5-star rank! Well, I think Stormin' Norman and Colin deserve a lot of recognition for the job that they (both) did out there, but not 5 stars! Neither has commanded an Army Group (as the other Army 5-stars did) and they certainly have not exercised combat command over a long period (2-3 years) as the previous 5-stars have. I for one hope that they don't cheapen 5-star rank by awarding it to Powell and Schwartzkopf for this one campaign, no matter how well they did it. dave
ccmay@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Chris May) (03/06/91)
From: ccmay@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Chris May) Who are the bodyguards in civilian clothing who accompany Schwarzkopf? And I heard they are using AR-15's instead of M-16's; why would this be? Are they from some private security consultant firm or something? --ccm Chris May
mr@homxa.att.com (M Rindsberg) (03/07/91)
From: mr@homxa.att.com (M Rindsberg)
In article <1991Mar4.212236.9408@cbnews.att.com> emery@aries.mitre.org (David Emery) writes:
# According to the radio (NPR) last night, there are several congressmen
# proposing special rewards for Schwartzkopf and Powell. One idea is a
# congressional gold medal. D'Amato (R-NY) has even called for Powell
# and Schwartzkopf to be promoted to 5-star rank!
I am all for it.
# Well, I think Stormin' Norman and Colin deserve a lot of recognition
# for the job that they (both) did out there, but not 5 stars! Neither
# has commanded an Army Group (as the other Army 5-stars did) and they
# certainly have not exercised combat command over a long period (2-3
# years) as the previous 5-stars have.
What exactly is an Army Group ? I think the logistics of
commanding a force of 500K is comparable to commanding 1-2M.
Also, a CINC who can finish the job in 1 1/2 months is better than
a CINC who finishes in 2-3 years generally. (I know that 2-3 years
in WWII was against a much better army, but nevertheless, those
things shouldn't be measured in terms of time, but rather in terms
of effectiveness)
# I for one hope that they don't cheapen 5-star rank by awarding it to
# Powell and Schwartzkopf for this one campaign, no matter how well they
# did it.
I would give to them. Hopefully, we won't have any more 2-3 year
conflicts required for your valuation of 5 star status.
Besides, giving them an additional star is the only way to give
them a raise :-)
mark
mr@cbnewsh.att.commajor@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (03/08/91)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: ccmay@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Chris May) > Who are the bodyguards in civilian clothing who accompany Schwarzkopf? And > I heard they are using AR-15's instead of M-16's; why would this be? Are > they from some private security consultant firm or something? Specially trained Military Police/CID and/or Counterintelligence/counter- terrorist agents - and they usually carry UZI's. This has come about with the advent of terrorist risks in Europe around '79-'82 (remember Dozier?) - and attacks on General Haig, then SAC Europe in Belgium. In the field, two MP gunjeeps accompany commanding generals wherever they go - and a contingent of MPs (a division MP Company has a Security Platoon for this mission) protect his command post and private van. We began training our MPs and Security Agents with the local german counterterrorists teams specifically for VIP Security. Eventually, though the general's didn't care for it - we maintained security patrols around their quarters and plainclothed, UZI-carrying personal security guards. Westmoreland, in Vietnam, had the biggest damn MP sergeant I've ever seen in my life as his personal guard - sum'bitch must've stood 6'7" and was a former defensive tackle for Chicago Bears. You don't think that Schwarzkopf would have any CIVILIANS around him do you? Mike Schmitt "You job is to get between the Man and the Bullet" - briefing by Secret Service Agent
wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (03/26/91)
From: Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL> Resubmission: my original seems to have been lost in the mail and never appeared in the Digest: From: tighe@hydra.convex.com (Mike Tighe) >I think you missed the source of the question. Like Mr. May, I saw (on TV) >Schwarzkoff being guarded by people that were dressed in civilian attire, >and carrying AR15/M16's. I think this was most evident during the 60 >Minutes interview. >So, to repeat the question, were these people civilians? If not, why were >they wearing civilian clothes? I hope the people on this list saw the Barbara Walters interview with GEN Schwartzkopf on 20/20 on Friday, 15 March. They not only showed the bodyguards but spoke of them (unfortunately briefly, and in no detail). There are American-looking (whatever that may mean... :-) guards in mufti (civilian attire) and Saudi guards in uniform. Each seemed to have his counterpart, so when they paired off, there'd be one uniformed and one civilian. The Saudis carried some form of SMG, while the others carried either M16s or AR15s (no detail shown so couldn't tell). There were four of them walking down the corridor in the underground HQ, with Walters & Schwartzkopf. When the party arrived at the "War Room" at the end of the corridor, a pair broke off and about-faced to cover the corridor, while the other two accompanied the General and Ms. Walters (plus, of course, the TV crew you didn't see) into the room. The General stated they were with him day and night, constantly, and referred quite admiringly and approvingly to their performance and ability and value. While the reason the ones in mufti are not in uniform wasn't stated explicitly, another poster did refer to there being at least one reason. If they are CID, they are sort of like "plainclothes" detectives. It makes their job easier if they stand apaprt from the military rank structure, and are not immediately categorized as an inferior or superior. As to these particular bodyguards, remember their job would involve denying passage to high-ranking officers of various nationalities (including royal-family Coalition officers), and, if they wore their real rank (they may be non-coms, or lieutenants, for example) that would be much harder. It would be a loss of face and perhaps an insult for a Saudi Colonel, for example, to be seen obeying a US Sergeant. It would be hard for a US Major General to take an instruction from a Lieutenant, and so forth. Putting these guards into civilian attire removes their obvious rank, and sets them apart from everyone else in the environment, all of whom were wearing uniforms. They are immediately obvious as being "special cases" and can do their job without the saluting, traditional military courtesy, etc., that would interfere with their efficiency. (I'm sure they are respectful, refer to everyone as "Sir" or "Ma'am", but are nonetheless firm and adamant about letting past only those authorized, and have no qualms about using force.) I wonder about the Saudi uniformed counterparts. I can understand the political reasoning that puts them there, but they did not appear to have the same "distance" from the surrounding officers that the civilian-attired guards do. I suppose that is one reason for their being paired with the US guys; if some high-ranking Saudi braced them and ordered them to let him by, the other guy was there to enforce the rules. But I wouldn't want to be the Saudi guy after the war, after the Americans leave, if such an incident occured! :-) Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil