pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip Verdieck) (04/05/89)
From: Philip Verdieck <pv04+@andrew.cmu.edu> In regard to sub vs. sub killings. There are at least a half dozen accounts where American subs intercepted Japanese boats enroute to their stations/bases etc. These were usually US at periscope vs Japanese on surface.
ruedi@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (David Ruedi) (03/29/91)
[ I broke the long run-on paragraph up into something easier to
read, but the words are all the same. --CDR]
From: ruedi@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (David Ruedi)
Since the subject of submarines has come up, I would like to
provide some background information that might help. Most of the
technical details come from an UNCLASSIFIED brief given by John Coale
at a recent meeting of the Flagship section of ASNE, his references are
about one and a half pages long (if anyone is interested in them, I can
provide them by separate correspondence).
First, every ship type has its place. Surface ships are very good
at moving large amounts of things long distances at moderate speeds.
This includes men, material, and food. Another strong point of a
surface ship is its ability to operate away from friendly land for
extended periods of time, this is useful for aircraft, medical
facilities, command and control, and other things. Aircraft are very
good in their field as well. They can move small quantities of things
very large distances very quickly. The submarines main strong point is
its stealth, its ability to take the fight to the enemy undetected.
Obviously, every ship type has its drawbacks; surface ships are easily
detectable, aircraft require bases (floating or otherwise) at frequent
intervals, and submarines are limited in payload.
Some direct comments about some recent posts in the stealth boat
theme. Submarines are the best stealth platform that exists today.
They have zero radar cross section when submerged and very small with
masts exposed, and they are quieter than any surface ship. Or, another
way to look at it, what percentage of the warfighting capabilities of
the major powers has been dedicated to finding submarines? Surface
ships? Aircraft?
The comments about submarines being slow is misleading. It is true
that most diesel subs are slow, but the USS Albacore was the fastest
submarine of her day; it depends on what you design it to do. And this
argument does not hold for almost all nuclear boats. The LOS ANGELES
class was designed to escort carrier battle groups and the SEAWOLF
class will be even faster. The Soviets have always had fast SSNs.
Anti-submarine warfare (ASW) is one of the most technically difficult
things to do in the military. This is evidenced by the massive amounts
of resources invested in it, from R&D through operations. The military
dedicates many platforms to this role, aircraft, ships, satellites, and
submarines. Shallow water ASW is, by far, the hardest part of ASW for
many reasons. And there is much more to ASW than just detecting a
submarine, as the Swedes demonstrated a few years ago in the Baltic Sea
and the Brits at the Falkland Islands. Once you have detected a sub,
it has to be localized, targeted, then fired at. All of these are very
hard. For example the Brits had detected and knew that there was an
Argentine sub trying to attack them, but they were unable to sink it
even after expending over 200 pieces of ordnance, and they are one of
the best at ASW.
John Benedict (from Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory)
pointed out that the only area although third world defense spending
went down in the 1980's overall, spending on submarines actually went
up. There is no indication that this will change in the 1990's, if
anything, it will accelerate.
There are currently over 120 submarines in the hands of more than 19
third world countries and more than 60 are on order. There are
currently more than seven types of submarines available to the third
world from seven countries and another seven types will be available by
the year 2010. The two most popular are the Germany Type 209 (and
variants) and the Soviet Kilo.
The Type 209 was first introduced in 1986. It has a maximum speed of
22 knots and an endurance of 8000 nm at 8 kts. It has eight 21"
torpedo tubes and can carry up to 14 weapons including the Harpoon and
Exocet. The Germans have exported this boat to a dozen countries and
are also selling the capability to indigenously produce them.
The Kilo was also introduced in 1986. It has a maximum speed of 18
knots and an endurance of 20,000 nm at 11 kts. It has six 21" torpedo
tubes and can carry 18 weapons. The Soviets have exported this boat to
four countries and is actively trying to market it to bring in badly
needed foreign currency.
LT David H. Ruedi, USNruedi@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (David Ruedi) (04/01/91)
From: ruedi@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (David Ruedi)
There have been a number of questions asking for more details on third
world subs. So...
Here is my definition of third world countries: The group of
undeveloped or developing countries of Africa, Asia, and Latin America
that do not align themselves with, or are not committed to, the
politics of either the United States or the Soviet Union; thus
excluding the U.S., the U.S.S.R., NATO and Warsaw Pact countries,
Australia, and New Zealand.
The following UNCLASSIFIED list of subs is primarily from Jane's
and includes some non-third world countries (all are SSs unless
otherwise noted):
Albania 2 Whiskey
Algeria 2 Kilo 2 Romeo
Argentina 2 Type 209/1200 2 TR1700
Brazil 1 Type 209/1400 3 Oberon
Bulgaria 2 Romeo
Chile 2 Type 209/1300 2 Oberon
China 15 Whiskey 85 Romeo 3 Ming
1 Golf(SSB) 1 Han(SSN) 1 Xia(SSBN)
Columbia 2 Type 209/1200
Cuba 3 Foxtrot
Ecuador 2 Type 209/1300
Eqypt 2 Whiskey 10 Romeo
India 2 Type 209/1500 6 Kilo 8 Foxtrot
1 Charlie(SSGN)
Indonesia 2 Type 209/1300
Libya 6 Foxtrot
North Korea 4 Whiskey 17 Romeo
Pakistan 2 Agosta 4 Daphne
Peru 6 Type 209/1200 4 Mackerel
Poland 1 Kilo 1 Foxtrot
Romania 1 Kilo
South Africa 3 Daphne
Syria 3 Romeo
Taiwan 3 Hai Lung
Venezuela 2 Type 209/1300
Yugoslavia 3 Heroj 2 Sava
Total: 225
There are 21 different sub types listed above. Here is some
UNCLASSIFIED info on them (again mostly from Jane's):
SSN
HAN First produced by China in 1974.
330 ft long 5000 LT displ
25 kts 100 men
6-21" torpedo tubes
SSGN
CHARLIE I First produced by the USSR in 1988.
308 ft long 5000 LT displ
24 kts 100 men
6-21" torpedo tubes
SSBN
XIA First produced by China in 1987.
394 ft long 8000 LT displ
22 kts 84 men
SSB
GOLF First produced by the USSR in 1964.
321 ft long 2950 LT displ
13 kts 86 men
10-21" torpedo tubes (6 Bow, 4 Stern)
SS
HAI LUNG First produced by the Netherlands in 1987.
220 ft long 2660 LT displ
20 kts 67 men
6-21" torpedo tubes
Type 209/1500 First produced by W. Germany in 1986.
211 ft long 1850 LT displ 853 ft depth
22 kts 40 men
8-21" torpedo tubes
Type 209/1400 First produced by W. Germany in 1989.
200 ft long 1440 LT displ 820 ft depth
22 kts 30 men
8-21" torpedo tubes
Type 209/1300 First produced by W. Germany in 1976.
200 ft long 1600 LT displ 820 ft depth
22 kts 33 men
8-21" torpedo tubes
Type 209/1200 First produced by W. Germany in 1980.
184 ft long 1290 LT displ 820 ft depth
22 kts 35 men
8-21" torpedo tubes
OBERON First produced by the United Kingdom in 1976.
295 ft long 2410 LT displ
17 kts 65 men
8-21" torpedo tubes (6 Bow, 2 Stern)
WHISKEY First produced by the USSR in 1960.
249 ft long 1350 LT displ
14 kts 54 men
6-21" torpedo tubes (4 Bow, 2 Stern)
KILO First produced by the USSR.
240 ft long 3000 LT displ 985 ft depth
18 kts 45 men
6-21" torpedo tubes
ROMEO First produced by the USSR.
252 ft long 1700 LT displ
13 kts 54 men
8-21" torpedo tubes (6 Bow, 2 Stern)
MING First produced by China in 1975.
249 ft long 2113 LT displ 985 ft depth
18 kts 56 men
8-21" torpedo tubes (6 Bow, 2 Stern)
FOXTROT First produced by the USSR in 1958.
300 ft long 2500 LT displ
13 kts 75 men
10-21" torpedo tubes (6 Bow, 4 Stern)
AGOSTA First produced by France in 1979.
222 ft long 1740 LT displ 985 ft depth
20 kts 54 men
4-21" torpedo tubes
DAPHNE First produced by France in 1970.
190 ft long 1043 LT displ 985 ft depth
16 kts 45 men
12-21" torpedo tubes (8 Bow, 4 Stern)
MACKEREL First produced by the US in 1965.
243 ft long 1400 LT displ
10 kts 40 men
6-21" torpedo tubes (4 Bow, 2 Stern)
HEROJ First produced by Yugoslavia in 1968.
210 ft long 1068 LT displ
10 kts 55 men
6-21" torpedo tubes
SAVA First produced by Yugoslavia in 1978.
216 ft long 964 LT displ 980 ft depth
16 kts 35 men
6-21" torpedo tubes
I don't have, or can't provide, any more information on them.
I apologize for the terrible columns but I haven't figured this editor
out yet. [ I fixed it up a little, just this once. --CDR]
These are my own opinions, NOT the US Governments
All information comes from UNCLASSIFIED sources and is not
verified by the US Government.
LT David H. Ruedi, USN