rubin@cis.ohio-state.edu (daniel j rubin) (02/19/91)
From: rubin@cis.ohio-state.edu (daniel j rubin) >Forgive me if this has been discussed, but I just read an article by a >reporter that has just returned from Israel. He ->witnessed<- Patriot >missles being fired, and going off course and exploding in Tel Aviv. > >How reliable are these things really? I've been told >that doctrine is to launch 2 Patriots for every incoming SCUD- what happens >to the Patriot that doesn't hit a SCUD (even non-defective, on course ones)- >to they fall to earth and cause damage? How could they NOT cause damage? From what I have read and heard the way a patriot works is that the path of the incomming missle is calculated and the patriot is programmed to cross this path at a point were the incomming missle is about to cross it. When the patriot gets to this point it's nose cone releases a lot of cubes that eventually run into the incomming missle causing it to break up and its warhead to explode in the air. I don't see how a patriot can do that much damage since it just releases hi speed cubes to intercept the incomming missle and since it is programmed to release them at a cretain point in the air it does not matter if the what happens to the incomming missle if two patriots are launched because they both have a set task anyways. All this is from reading USA Today and watching CNN so there is a very real chance that I could be wrong, but this would be the way I would do it anyways.... - Dan Rubin
stevenp@decwrl.pa.dec.com (Steven Philipson) (03/18/91)
From: stevenp@decwrl.pa.dec.com (Steven Philipson) In article <1991Feb19.033653.19495@cbnews.att.com>, rubin@cis.ohio-state.edu (daniel j rubin) writes; > [...] When > the patriot gets to this point it's nose cone releases a lot of cubes that > eventually run into the incomming missle causing it to break up and its > warhead to explode in the air. I don't see how a patriot can do that much > damage since it just releases hi speed cubes to intercept the incomming missle > and since it is programmed to release them at a cretain point in the air > it does not matter if the what happens to the incomming missle if two patriots > are launched because they both have a set task anyways. "Releasing cubes" is a time-honored method of inflicting damage. Hand- grenades release cubes in similar fashion, just as rifles can be said to release little balls. In the case of a missile, this is known as a "fragmentation warhead". The timing of the detonation of the warhead is intended to maximize the probability of fragment impact on the incoming missile. It is possible for the SCUD's warhead to be detonated or for its detonating mechanism to be disabled. The SCUD can also be destabilized, possibly resulting in an inflight breakup and subsequent failure to detonate. In some cases, the intercepted SCUD warhead detonates anyway. Clearly the Patriot does not constitute a perfect defense. Patriots are subject to failure as are any other piece of machinery. Multiple Patriot launches are thus employed to increase the probability of an effective intercept. Aviation Week reported that sometimes the second missile just exploded against the debris from the first missile. On other occasions, the first missile was not successful, and the second was needed to complete the intercept. Steve (the certified flying fanatic) stevenp@decwrl.dec.com
stevenp@decwrl.pa.dec.com (Steven Philipson) (03/18/91)
From: stevenp@decwrl.pa.dec.com (Steven Philipson) In article <1991Feb18.061210.14241@cbnews.att.com>, baum@Apple.COM (Allen J. Baum) writes; > [...] much of the > damage (and some of the injuries) attributed to SCUD debris is actually > damage caused by defective(?) Patriots. Naturally, Israeli censorship has > prohibited broadcasts of this information. Can this be an explanation of > why Israel has prohibited broadcasting even the number of Patriots launched > to intercept a SCUD? Information on the number of defensive missiles launched provides the attacker with useful information, namely that the offensive missiles are reaching their target. In this case, the Iraqis know that 2 Patriots are typically launched to counter one SCUD. Thus they can assume that half that number of missiles reached their targets. Since they know how many they launched and when, these data provide a measure of attack effectiveness and are a tool for increasing it. > [...] what happens > to the Patriot that doesn't hit a SCUD (even non-defective, on course ones)- > to they fall to earth and cause damage? How could they NOT cause damage? It's not that it causes *no* damage, but that such damage is very small. The debris from an expended Patriot is non-explosive, and falling at a relatively low velocity. A Patriot that experiences loss of control and that detonates on ground impact will cause more damage, but not nearly as much as a SCUD. This is because the warhead is a relatively small fragmentation device as opposed to a heavy high-explosive warhead as on the SCUD. Steve (the certified flying fanatic) stevenp@decwrl.dec.com
stevenp@decwrl.pa.dec.com (Steven Philipson) (04/09/91)
From: stevenp@decwrl.pa.dec.com (Steven Philipson) A short follow-up to my own post... In article <1991Mar18.134804.19216@cbnews.att.com>, I wrote a response to daniel rubin who wrote; >>I don't see how a patriot can do that much >> damage since it just releases hi speed cubes to intercept the >> incomming missle The January 28 issue of Aviation Week reported on the PAC-2 warhead for the Patriot. The report impressed me, so I thought that I'd share it with the net. The PAC-2 warhead on the Patriots breaks up into large fragments and makes it possible to destroy an incoming TBM without hitting it head-on. A single fragment strikes with the force of a large American automobile running into a brick wall at 80 mph. That's about 1.7 million foot pounds of force per fragment. Impressive. Steve (the certified flying fanatic) stevenp@decwrl.dec.com