VANDENBR%UNCG.BITNET@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (David A. Vandenbroucke) (04/23/91)
From: "David A. Vandenbroucke" <VANDENBR%UNCG.BITNET@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu> I was prowling my Friendly Neighborhood Hobby Store the other day, and I noticed all of Victory Games' "fleet" series lined up in a row: "Second Fleet," "Third Fleet," "Fifth Fleet," "Sxith Fleet," and "Seventh Fleet." That got me to wondering: Why are there no 1st Fleet or 4th Fleet? (I have subsequently learned that there is in fact no 5th Fleet, either, but that there had been talk of activating one for the Indian Ocean.) The question remains, how did these fleet numbers come about? Was there a time when we had "Seven Fleets for Seven Seas?" Is the current numbering system the outcome of some later reorganization program that cut out the 1st, 4th, and 5th Fleets without renumbering the rest? [This is the sort of question that results in a lot of followups. Sure answers only, please. --CDR] --Dav Vandenbroucke Dept. Economics UNC Greensboro
deichman@cod.nosc.mil (Shane D. Deichman) (05/02/91)
From: deichman@cod.nosc.mil (Shane D. Deichman) (look, ma! no quoted text! :-) [ THANK YOU!! --CDR ] Regarding a posting asking about the USN's somewhat illogical method of numbering their fleets (i.e., 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th), I asked one of the local "oldtimers" about the evolution of this numbering scheme. He said that there used to be just a 1st Flt and a 2nd Flt (a bit of protocol -- even numbered fleets are LANT, odd numbered are PAC). There was a political brouhaha about this, saying that there shouldn't be a "1st" Flt since that implies precedence over all others. At the time, 1st Flt was homeported in San Diego. So, when 1st Flt moved to Pearl, they recristened it "3rd Flt." This lasted until the higher fleets (i.e., 6th and 7th) were split from the 2nd and 3rd Flts. There was no precedence over this move or this numbering style -- at least none that my contact was aware of. The duties of each fleet were: 2nd and 3rd Flts were for "Training and Readiness," while the 6th and 7th Flts were operational units. There was once talk of making a 5th Flt, which would basically incorp- orate the PACFLT fleets (3rd and 7th) into one command. This concept never evolved. I have also heard about a 10th Flt, but don't know much about that... (Heard one surface skimmer refer to it as a "Ghost Fleet...") My contact has never, in his 30+ years of Navy service, heard any mention of a 4th Flt. It should be noted that CINCENT, the Central Command, has the authority to take units from the various numbered fleets in time of war (e.g., the recent "Iraqi Invitational Gulf Tournament.") Hope this helps.... -shane
wunder@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Robert Wunderlick) (05/03/91)
From: wunder@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Robert Wunderlick) Acoording to a former naval contact of mine, the 5th fleet was operational in WWII, and was decommissioned along with demobilization around 1946. It appears now that 1st fleet will be re-established in San Diego, and 3rd fleet will be decommisioned. Info on even numbers being LANT flt and odd numbers being PACFLT appears correct. Bob Wunderlick
YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu (05/06/91)
From: <YBMCU%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu> >From: wunder@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Robert Wunderlick) >Acoording to a former naval contact of mine, the 5th fleet was operational >in WWII, and was decommissioned along with demobilization around 1946. The numbered fleets were a WWII invention - prior to that there was only the US fleet. Just prior to the war, an Atlantic Fleet was created, and a small force (mostly cruisers and smaller, plus some old subs) was designated as the Asiatic Fleet. One of the fleet commanders would be designated as CINCUS - as of Pearl Harbor, it was the C-in-C of the Pacific Fleet. Right after Pearl Harbor, the CINCUS job was split, leaving 3 fleet commanders, but still no numbered fleets. During the war, the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets still remained, mostly as training commands. A set of numbered fleets began to develop, each with different missions. By the end of the war, the numbered fleets were: Pacific: 3rd fleet/5th fleet: These were mostly the same ships - the Central Pacific force reporting to Nimitz. He has two primary fleet commanders - Fleet Admiral Halsey, and Admiral Spruance. When the Halsey team commanded the ships, they were the 3rd fleet, when the Spruance team commanded them, they were the 5th fleet. (They also changed things like fast carrier commanders, etc, but it was the same ships.) These ships included all of the fast carriers and new battleships in the Pacific. 7 fleet - Under Admiral Kinkaid, reporting to General MacArthur as C-in-C Southwest Pacific. These was mainly the old battleships, and escort carriers (although those ships would often be back with 3/5 fleet if one of them is conducting a landing). Things could get very messy (and did at Leyte) when both 3rd and 7th fleets were involved in a landing, since they didn't report to the same boss. In the Atlantic: 4th fleet - South Atlantic - mostly dispatched from the Atlantic fleet, since not much was happening there. 8 fleet - US Naval Forces, Northwest African Waters - essentially the Mediterranean fleet. Originally set up to support the North African landings, and stayed on for the rest of the war 12th fleet - US Naval Forces, Europe - an administrative command, since the fleets in Europe were under the command of the British Admiral who was the naval commander under Eisenhower. Interestingly enough, this was under the command of Admiral Stark, who was exiled to there after being blamed for the naval side of Pearl Harbor (he was Chief of Naval Operations at the time.) 10th fleet - This one also had no ships, and was under the direct command of King (CNO/Cominch - the old CINCUS title renamed). This one was the administrative orgainization in charge of Atlantic theater antisubmarine warfare. Much of this information can be found in Morrison's 15 volume naval history of WWII, or in the official reports of King during the war (reprinted in a single volume after the war), or any other good naval history of WWII. -- Ben Yalow BITNET: YBMCU@CUNYVM INTERNET: YBMCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU City University of New York 555 W 57 St NY, NY 10019
wul@sco.COM (Wu Liu) (05/07/91)
From: Wu Liu <wul@sco.COM> >From: wunder@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Robert Wunderlick) >Acoording to a former naval contact of mine, the 5th fleet was operational >in WWII, and was decommissioned along with demobilization around 1946. I seem to recall that the main U.S. strike fleet in the Pacific theatre during the 1944-1945 time frame was called the 3rd fleet when Halsey was commanding, and the 5th fleet when Spruance ran his flag up. The ships themselves were mostly the same.