scottl@convergent.com (Scott Lurndal) (05/03/91)
From: scottl@convergent.com (Scott Lurndal) Tuesday (4/30) episode of Wings on Discovery Channel was devoted to the SR-71 Blackbird. It was a very good episode. At one point, quick mention was made of a drone version of the Blackbird, known as the D-21. It was indicated that this program/project is still black and no further details were given. This was the first I had ever heard of a drone blackbird (that may still be flying), has anyone else heard anything about this? -- scott lurndal UNISYS System Products Development Group San Jose, ca.
wb9omc@ee.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) (05/03/91)
From: wb9omc@ee.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) [Same quote etc. etc. --CDR] I'll try to keep this as brief as possible..... :-) [Thanks! --CDR] The Lockheed GTD21 was an unmanned recon. drone powered by a Marquardt ramjet. It was about 1/2 the size of the SR71 or slightly less (no reference books here in the office) and was originally designed to be carried on the *back* of a modified CIA A12 Blackbird, a forerunner of the SR71. (and if you ask me about the A12, we could be here all day....) A12's 940 and 941 (supposedly the last two built) were modified into what is often called the M12 drone configuration which included a second crew position in the Q-bay, where "instruments" were normally carried. This person was the drone launch control operator. On the first test flight of the M12/GTD21 that had a full load of fuel, etc., the D21 separated just fine but failed to clear the M12's supersonic shock wave. The drone slammed into 941's back, causing an unforgiving mach3+ pitchup. The M12 began breaking up into little pieces. Pilot Bill Park and WSO Ray Torick ejected - but unfortunately Torick drowned in the pacific ocean before he could be recovered. Bill Park survived (and in fact, lived to eject from yet another Skunk Works creation, the Lockheed Have Blue XST, or more commonly known as the F117's prototype - and survived this one as well, as far as I know....). Kelly Johnson was horrifed at the accident and personally cancelled the whole project. The remaining D21's were modified to D21*B* configuration, in which they were fitted with a rocket booster and air-launched from a B52 mothership. The rocket booster was required because the Marquardt ramjet could only start at speeds in the Mach 2 range, which the B52 cannot attain. It is thought that some D21B's were used operationally, specifically over Afghanistan. There were apparently always problems recovering the instrument package which was supposed to eject from the D21, pop a parachute and be snagged in mid-air. The drone itself was then supposed to destruct, although I don't think anybody is certain if this was by explosives (which could have been rather hazardous to the mothership), plunging into the ocean at high-mach (at which point water looks about like concrete....) or by aerodynamic breakup following package ejection (if you go popping off panels at mach 4, the results can be *extremely unpleasant* unless, of course, that's what you want!). Supposedly the D21 could boogie along at Mach 4+ at 100,000+ feet; originally it was designed to overfly the Soviet Union after the politicians in DC promised the USSR that we would NOT make any *manned* overflights. To this day, I don't think anybody is willing to come forward and say if it ever DID overfly the USSR. ( I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you..... :-) is about what you'd hear) The story that is told about how the public got wind of the D21 is flaky, but interesting. It seems a group of aviation enthusiasts were being led about the boneyard at Davis-Monthan AFB photographing old airplanes. The AF person who was with them really didn't know all that much but was simply assigned to go with them. The D21's had just been sent there for "storage", and were lined up in a row with tarps over them. One of the tarps had blown off, and there was the D21. The group stumbled across them and said, essentially, what the hell is that? The enlisted USAF fellow didn't know, and evidently let them take LOTS of pictures which got widely circulated. Here is where the story gets a little fuzzy. Evidently, the USAF was *extremely* embarrassed and decided to release some information as a means of rumour control. And I understand that they then reclassified the whole thing until 2000-something!! (GRRRRRRR.......) You may recall that I said that there were TWO M12's....the other one, serial number 60-6940 should be, by now, at the Seattle Museum of Flight. It is my understanding that they are hopping up and down on both Lockheed and USAF to get not only a D21 to mount on it, but it seems that the aircraft was delivered to them *without* the pylon that the D21 mounted to. When they asked Lockheed for the pylon they were told that it was needed for a "active program"..... Isn't THAT interesting, Blackbird fans? Now, as per a request from a previous group moderator, if we wish to get into more detail, we should remove ourselves from sci.military. Fortunately, there IS a vehicle for such discussions - my co-conspirator here at Purdue, Phil Moyer, is running a mailing list called (appropriately enough) "skunk works", in which we discuss high-performance aircraft and related topics. The list has been down for a while but Phil tells me is about to resurface after some serious mailer troubles. If you'd like him to add you to the list, email him at: prm@orchestra.ecn.purdue.edu (he's gonna kill me now, for sure.....) :-) [This is brief? :-) :-) --CDR] Duane
v059l49z@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (05/04/91)
From: v059l49z@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu [Same quote deleted. --CDR] You and/or the show are mistaken. The D-21 drone was carried by the SR-71 to an area near the subject of the mission. It was release near the target where it did its thing, then flew to a friendly area for recovery (I'm sure not by the SR-71 but I could be wrong about it.) Then engine of the D-21 was closer to a pure ram-jet than those of the SR-71. The D-21 program ended partially because it was for areas the '71's couldn't go into, but the Air Force found it could go anywhere they wanted it to. There are stories of tail-chases by missiles, but they couldn't touch the SR-71. -- Real name: Paul Stacy V059L49Z@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Alias: Joe Friday V059L49Z@UBVMSD.BITNET SUNY Buffalo, Buff State College Best one->STACY54@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
rteasdal@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Falconer) (05/04/91)
From: rteasdal@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Falconer) [The same quoted text you read in the previous article, deleted. --CDR] No, not still flying. The D21 was a supersonic ramjet drone about a quarter of the size and length of an SR71, carried to speed and height aboard an A-12 (11?), the CIA reconnaisance version of the Blackbird. They were apparently used for high speed, high altitude flyovers of mainland China in the mid-to-late sixties. An A-12 was lost in the course of a D21 launch when the drone wobbled and took the vertical stabilizers off the parent craft, breaking the whole fuselage in two. Pilot and drone control officer ejected; former survived, latter drowned. There are still D21s in desert storage at Lockheed in Palmdale, California, but they're not flyable. The A-12s were the only Blackbird family members rigged for drone carriage and they went out of service long ago. Interesting relics, no more than that. -- Russ Teasdale -- rteasdal@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU -- (Falconer)
fcrary@lightning.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) (05/04/91)
From: fcrary@lightning.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary) In article <1991May3.063259.5277@amd.com> scottl@convergent.com (Scott Lurndal) writes: >Tuesday (4/30) episode of Wings on Discovery Channel was devoted >to the SR-71 Blackbird. It was a very good episode. At one >point, quick mention was made of a drone version of the Blackbird, >known as the D-21. It was indicated that this program/project is >still black and no further details were given. The rumors I have heard are as follows: The D-21 was not a unmanned version of the SR-71. It was a high speed recon. drone launched from a SR-71. The second crewman on the SR-71 was changed from a co-pilot/navigator to a drone operartor. The D-21 flew at speads of ~5 Ma. It was internded to go places that a SR-71 could not safely go. (This was a flop, since the SR-71 can go almost ANYWHERE safely.) The launching of the drone was done from the TOP rather than under the SR-71 (most cruise missiles and air-launched aircraft are droped from under the carrier aircraft.) This over-launching was not a success. I have heard that one SR-71 was damaged, and another lost as a result of launch failures. The D-21/SR-71 program was eliminated during the Viet Nam war. The remaining D-21 were launched from B-52's (two D-21 to the B-52). Frank Crary UC Berkeley
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (05/05/91)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: scottl@convergent.com (Scott Lurndal) >...quick mention was made of a drone version of the Blackbird, >known as the D-21... [At least Mr. Spencer edited the quote down to two lines! Take note. --CDR] Not quite right. The D-21 was a recon drone that flew at similar speeds to the Blackbird and bore some slight resemblance to a scaled-down Blackbird, but it wasn't the same aircraft. The original intent was to launch it from the Blackbird -- the drone being carried on the Blackbird's back fairly well aft -- but separating the two proved troublesome and at least one Blackbird was lost in an attempted drone launch. The remaining D-21s were converted for launch from B-52s, using a rocket booster to get them up to cruising speed. This apparently worked well enough, but the D-21 was expensive and the program was eventually closed down. A little bit of information, including photographs of some mothballed D-21s, surfaced a few years ago. -- And the bean-counter replied, | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology "beans are more important". | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Dave Hastings) (05/07/91)
From: daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Dave Hastings) scottl@convergent.com (Scott Lurndal) writes: > This was the first I had ever heard of a drone blackbird (that > may still be flying), has anyone else heard anything about this? The D-21 drone was intended to be launched from the Lockheed A12. However, on a test flight on 3oth July 1966, a D-21 was released from an A12 at Mach 3+, failed to clear the shock wave and hit the A12's tail, causing it (the A12) to break up. After that the D-21 was modified to be carried by the B-52. Whether the D-21 was ever used on recce missions is uncertain; as you say the project is still black (but not totally black - some pictures of the D-21 have been released). -- David Hastings | JANET: DAVEH@UK.AC.OXFORD.VAX VAX Systems Programmer | Oxford University Computing Service|
brims@BNKL01.astro.ucla.edu (05/07/91)
From: brims@BNKL01.astro.ucla.edu [ Followups by e-mail or to alt.models if you have it, please. --CDR ] I recall seeing a Blackbird model kit in my local store a year or so ago which included a drone carried on top. Anyone have any idea how accurate a representation this was? George Brims UCLA "Nobody is responsible for what I say except me, but I'll probably try to blame someone else anyway."
wb9omc@ee.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) (05/08/91)
From: wb9omc@ee.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) v059l49z@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu writes: >You and/or the show are mistaken. The D-21 drone was carried by the SR-71 Never carried by an SR71 - it was carried by the CIA's Blackbird, the A12 which was around *before* the SR71... >to an area near the subject of the mission. It was release near the target >where it did its thing, then flew to a friendly area for recovery (I'm >sure not by the SR-71 but I could be wrong about it.) The idea was that it would eject an equipment cannister and then self-destruct by some means. The cannister was supposed to be recovered. >Then engine of the D-21 was closer to a pure ram-jet than those of the >SR-71. It was, in fact, a Marquardt ramjet. >The D-21 program ended partially because it was for areas the '71's couldn't I think my posting covered the "official" reasons..... :-) Duane
megazone@wpi.WPI.EDU (Brian Bikowicz) (05/09/91)
From: megazone@wpi.WPI.EDU (Brian Bikowicz) scottl@convergent.com (Scott Lurndal) writes: >This was the first I had ever heard of a drone blackbird (that >may still be flying), has anyone else heard anything about this? There was no drone blackbird. The GTD-21D drone was carried BY blackbirds. It was designed to be carried on the back of the A-12s operated by the CIA. At least 2 A-12s were modified, having a rear-seater instead of an electronics bay. At least one A-12 was lost when the explosive seperation caused the A-12 to pitch up and strike the drone after release. The D-21 was powered by a single ramjet which made up the main body. This ramjet needed to be carried to speeds approaching Mach 3 before it worked. The planform was similar to that of the A-12/YF-12/SR-71 and it carried its recon equipment in bays on either side of the ramjet. As far as is known the blackbird launched drones were all converted for launch from the wing pylons of B-52s. There are public pictures of a B-52 carrying two D-21s, one under each wing. A solid rocket booster is attached to the old mounting points under the drone. This booster carried the drone to its operating speed/altitude. The conversion seems to have come about after the A-12c was lost and this may have been a contributing factor. If you are interested in the D-21 there is a Testors model kit of an A-12 with a D-21 drone. (It may be mislabeled as an A-11 as this is common.) Lockheed and the Blackbird inparticular has been a special interest of mine for a long time. Now lets see how the F-22 does. -- MEGAZONE, aka BRIAN BIKOWICZ Email megazone@wpi.wpi.edu Moderator, WPI amime FTP site 130.215.24.1 /anime