Al.Conte@EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte) (05/15/91)
From: Al.Conte@EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte) >From: <U38956%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> >Regarding the F-15 and an F-14 in a 1 v 1 dogfight, actually, the F-15 cannot >easily defeat the F-14. They're more pon equal ground with the difference >being in the quality of the pilot. F-14 Tomcats have been known to defeat >F-15 Eagles in dogfights in 1 v 1, or multiple. One of the outstanding >reasons for this is the F-14 Tomcat's ability to bat-turn among its >other maneuverability factors. For those of you who do not know what a "Bat Turn" is, it is nothing more than standing the Tomcat on one wing, in full burner and pulling the stick to your stomach. It equates to a 7 - 8 g turn rate, something that any F-15 can do also. A manuever that the Eagle developed that cannot be duplicated by the Tomcat is an upward spiraling while accelerating move. It takes a tremendous amount of excess energy to do this, and is said to be a formidable air to air tactic. The F-14 is a superb platform, as time has shown, but if you ask any pilot what he would rather fight in, they would say the F-15 eagle. It's performance is superior in all flight regimes compared to the Tomcat. Two pairs of eyes aside, (we could argue that for eternity) equal capable pilots in each plane, the F-15 would win almost all the time. Give Miramar NAS a call, they will tell you the same. peace! Al ~
daveg@prowler.clearpoint.com (Dave Goldblatt) (05/16/91)
From: daveg@prowler.clearpoint.com (Dave Goldblatt) On 15 May 91 15:48:44 GMT, Al.Conte@EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte) said: > It equates to a 7 - 8 g turn rate, something that any F-15 can do also. > A manuever that the Eagle developed that cannot be duplicated by the > Tomcat is an upward spiraling while accelerating move. Actually, the Tomcat can make tighter turns than the F-15. And from what I've seen, the F-14D (upgraded avionics and new engines, being delivered/remanufactured now) should have the power to do an upward spiral while accelerating as well (actually, I could have sworn I'd seen the F-14A do that as well). > The F-14 is a superb platform, as time has shown, but if you ask any > pilot what he would rather fight in, they would say the F-15 eagle. > It's performance is superior in all flight regimes compared to the > Tomcat. Two pairs of eyes aside, (we could argue that for eternity) > equal capable pilots in each plane, the F-15 would win almost all the > time. Give Miramar NAS a call, they will tell you the same. Funny, I know some people in the Air Force who have said that the F-15 drivers like to think they fly the best fighter in the world, but that they are "very careful when there's a Tomcat around." If someone will give Miramar a call -- maybe they'll tell you that after they stop laughing. ;-) -- "Look, folks, you can't save everyone. | Dave Goldblatt [daveg@clearpoint.com] Just try not to be living next to | Software Engineering (Subsystems) them when they go off." | Clearpoint Research Corporation - Dennis Miller | 35 Parkwood Dr., Hopkinton, MA 01748
thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler) (05/16/91)
From: thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler) Al.Conte@EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte) writes: > [...good explanation of manuevers deleted...] >The F-14 is a superb platform, as time has shown, but if you ask any >pilot what he would rather fight in, they would say the F-15 eagle. >It's performance is superior in all flight regimes compared to the >Tomcat. Two pairs of eyes aside, (we could argue that for eternity) >equal capable pilots in each plane, the F-15 would win almost all the >time. Give Miramar NAS a call, they will tell you the same. Would the F-15's superior flight regimes diminish when compare to the F-14A-Plus or the F-14D with its more powerful GE engines? Would then the F-14A-Plus be able to do the accelerating vertical spiral maneuver due to its better than 1:1 ratio between thrust/weight? Thanks -tt
U38956%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (05/17/91)
From: <U38956%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> The F-14's ability to bat-turn is not simply standing it on a wing and pulling the pole to your stomach. It involves bleeding airspeed and letting the variable geometry wings (Eagle does not have) motor forward to 35 degrees then hitting Zone V afterburner while pulling a hard turn. What then occurs is the Tomcat goes into a near 90 degree turn--practically a square corner. I have not heard of any other conventional aircraft being able to do that and the reason is in the wing glove and variable geometry of the Tomcat. The lift generated by the Tomcat not only comes from the wings, but also from its wing glove and its fuselage. The F-14's wing glove is awfully huge, and contributes to the lift. In addition, the tunnel between the F-14's engines underneath generate lift as well. Finally, among other things, the wings generate lift, and maximum lift comes from the variable geometry of the swing wings. It is this great amount of lift that causes the Tomcat to turn a near perfect square corner. Naturally, experienced pilots can pick up on this sometime. The tell-tale signs are the wings moving forward and the afterburner. However, many pilots cannot react in time for a solution, and those that do can't help but overshoot. Also, in a recent mock furball in Florida, the USAF F-15's and USN F-14 Tomcats (from F-14 squadron VF-101 Grim Reapers) met for some dogfighting which resulted in the F-15's getting waxed. This included 1 v 1 engagements. I have also seen Tomcats with kill markings for F-15 Eagles on its fuselage color coded to correspond to M61A1 kills in air-to-air combat. Granted, there have been Eagles that undoubtedly have F-14 kills under their belt also, but to quote an F-15 Eagle pilot: "When we go up in the air in our F-15's we think we're king of the skies--but we don't slow down against the gents in the F-14's." With the advent of the Delta Tomcats, the F-14 becomes even more formidable than before. With its admittedly new GE engines, they generate more thrust than the F-15's in use and have much better systems. The Eagle does have an edge over the Tomcat though, and that is in strike capability. The F-14A Tomcat has very limited strike capability (Mk 82's, etc.) but the newer F-14D and the proposed F-14D Quick Strike Tomcat, Tomcat-21, and the ASF-14 derivatives have strike capability including smart weaponry, ground-mapping, and off boresight targeting. Don't get me wrong. The F-15 Eagle IS a superb fighter, especially in strike. I used to be the F-15's number one fan. But when I was studying the Eagle and the Tomcat, I just found more advantages in the Tomcat than in the Eagle and things the Tomcat could do that the Eagle couldn't. And I found these out from an intense myriad of documented sources, pilots, RIOs, TOPGUN/Miramar personnel, aircrews, squadron personnel, and the Air Force themself--a former commander of NORAD said that 190 Tomcats could provide the same level of defense as 270 Eagles and he was only talking about the F-14A and that the Air Force had the option of choosing the F-14 but it fell victim to politics and inter-service rivalry. But, please remember, I am NOT knocking the Eagle. She is a superb plane and more power to her. But I just think the Tomcat is the better fighter based on the huge amounts of data and evidence that I have analyzed (if the pilots were of equal quality-- remember the Red Baron quote that I posted earlier). Check Six, Bones u38956@uicvm.bitnet SN0516911240
fsdjt2@thebox.rain.com (Dean Tabor) (05/17/91)
From: fsdjt2@thebox.rain.com (Dean Tabor) Al.Conte@EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte) writes: > It equates to a 7 - 8 g turn rate, something that any F-15 can do also. > A manuever that the Eagle developed that cannot be duplicated by the > Tomcat is an upward spiraling while accelerating move. > > It takes a tremendous amount of excess energy to do this, and is said to > be a formidable air to air tactic. Asides from giving the '15 driver a roaring case of the dizzies and perhaps making the '14 herder wonder which way the F-15 is going to come out of the spiral, how would this be a "formidable" tactic? A zoom climb is a zoom climb, no?
Al.Conte@EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte) (05/17/91)
From: Al.Conte@EBay.Sun.COM (Al Conte) > From: thi@mips2.ma30.bull.com (Saigon Smuggler) > Would the F-15's superior flight regimes diminish when compare to the > F-14A-Plus or the F-14D with its more powerful GE engines? Would then > the F-14A-Plus be able to do the accelerating vertical spiral maneuver > due to its better than 1:1 ratio between thrust/weight? Yes, you are correct in that assumption. With the advent of the GE F110 turbofans now upgrading the Tomcat to the A+ and D model designation, it moves the Tomcat into thrust to weight ratio of the PW100 powered F-15. I do believe however, that the USAF has been purchasing F110's as substitute systems for the Eagles. The F-15e model comes to mind. Though I do not know if the F-14 practices that manuever. Al