tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim) (05/17/91)
From: tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim) video@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Henry J. Cobb) writes: >B. H. Liddell Hart's "Strategy" (The indirect approach) came out in >paperback in 1967. > >SIGNET 0-451-14326-4 $4.95 I do not agree with everyone's recommendation of this book. While Hart is rightly praised for being an early advocate of modern mechanized warfare, I find this particular book to be not very interesting. IMHO, his idea of the "indirect approach" is only vaguely defined and not well thought out. He does little to substantiate his claims or to truly distinguish it from other similar concepts. On the other hand, I am not a world famous military theorist (yet :-) so what do I know ... [Although I strongly disagree with you I thought I'd put this in in the interests of equal time. --CDR] Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273
tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim) (05/17/91)
From: tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim) ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) writes: >In my opinion, the most fundamental and basic warfighting tome was left >off: "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. I am a bit ashamed to admit I don't have a copy of this. Does anyone have any opinions about which edition/translation is best? Also, does anyone know how an ordinary civilian like myself can get a copy of the USMC Maneuver Warfare doctrine manual? Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273
tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim) (05/17/91)
From: tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim) > A good place to start might be _War Games_ by Thomas Allen, > 0-425-11647-6 Berkley books. It deals more with strategic > level gaming, but has plenty of useful leads in its > bibliography. --CDR] Again, I have to differ with the moderator on book selection. IMHO, a much better book on the same subject is the "Art of Wargaming" by Peter Perla (Naval Institute Press). While the Allen book touches on many relevant subjects, it seems to me, he has an axe to grind and mostly seeks to stir up emotion. I feel the Perla book presents a more comphrensive and balanced treatment of wargaming. Also, he discusses the relationship between commercial (hobby) and Pentagon wargaming. [I hadn't heard of Perla's book. I agree with what you say about Allen's book, I'm primarily recommending it for its Bibliography. --CDR] Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273
aronb@gkcl.ists.ca (Aron Burns) (05/19/91)
From: aronb@gkcl.ists.ca (Aron Burns) >From: tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim) >>"The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. >I am a bit ashamed to admit I don't have a copy of this. Does anyone >have any opinions about which edition/translation is best? Shambala Publications Inc Horticultural Hall 300 Massachesetts Avenue Boston, Massachesetts 02115 translated by Thomas Cleary, ISBN 0-87773-452-6 (1988) Not only does it appear more faithful to the orignal than two other translations I've looked at, the physical quality is excellant ( acid-free paper, good binding, etc ). Aaron Burns, AG Simpson, Toronto "Nothing I say on the net is binding aronb@gkcl.ists.ca to our corporation" ..!uunet!gkcl.ists.ca!aronb
frezza@ee.pitt.edu (S. Frezza) (05/21/91)
From: frezza@ee.pitt.edu (S. Frezza) I was wondering if anyone might have information regarding the writings of Erwin Rommel, most especially his writings from WWII and "Aufgaben fur Zug und Kompanie" which he wrote in 1935. English editions preferred. Thanks in advance. S. Frezza frezza@ee.pitt.edu [Well, I liked _The Rommel Papers_, edited by B.H. Liddell-Hart. These cover Rommel's personal diary over the course of the war, with many enlightening comments by Hart. Translated to the English. -- CDR ]
jmc@wuphys.wustl.edu (Jimmy Chen) (05/21/91)
From: jmc@wuphys.wustl.edu (Jimmy Chen)
> "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu.
IMHO:
The best translation of the Sunzi Bing Fa (Sun Tzu's Art of War) is by
Brig. General Samuel B. Griffith (Oxford University Press 1963). Done
as part of his Ph.D., it has a foreward by B.H. Liddell-Hart. It
translates Sunzi's points, the various commentator's notes, has a
chapter on Mao's guerilla warfare, and more. In addition, it includes
translations of Wu Ch'i's Art of War.
To show how good it is, I came across a new translation by a People's
Republic of China general somebody (it might be Zhang, but I really
don't remember). After a brief skimming, I concluded that it is a
word-for-word ripoff of Griffith's translation. All this guy did was
add his own somewhat shallow comments. If imitation is the sincerest
form of flattery, then plagiarism must be divine.
Also, there is a translation by James Clavell of Noble House, Tai-Pan,
Shogun fame. It's ok, but Griffith's is more scholarly.
As to Thomas Cleary's translation, I don't really know since I've never
read it. But, I have a copy of his Mastering The Art of War. All I
can say about this book is, Don't Buy It. In a word, it's trite. He
has a habit of telling stories from Chinese history with all their
sweet juices sucked out. Instead of a pithy story with a definite
point, people, and places, we read a rather vague shadow of it. All
names and places have been excised. Maybe he thought this makes it
easier for American readers, but it really pissed me off. If his Sunzi
Bing Fa is anything like this, it must be awful.
--
Jimmy Chen
jmc@wuphys.wustl.eduemery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David Emery) (05/22/91)
From: emery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David Emery) Rommel's "Attacks" has been recently reprinted by Presidio Press. I think it's now available in paperback. To the best of my knowledge, that is all that is available in English. dave emery
tedrick@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) (05/23/91)
From: tedrick@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick) >I was very impressed with Liddell-Hart's Strategy on first reading, but >less so as I read other perspectives on some of the example battles >and wars he uses as support. While I like Liddell-Hart's books, it seems to me J.F.C. Fuller had a deeper insight into military problems. Liddell-Hart is less controversial, so probably appeals to a wider audience than Fuller. >I particularly find his comparison of Grant and Sherman to be very flawed. >He lauds Sherman's indirect approach in the March to the Sea and lambasts >Grant for running a meatgrinder campaign in the East. He totally misses >the fact that these two generals were working together on ONE strategy, Fuller made a similar argument (in "Grant vs. Lee" if memory serves me, and in other books). The basic idea is to use some of your force to pin down enemy forces with a frontal attack, making it possible for another part of your force to manouevre against the flanks or rear of the enemy position. [ Can you suggest which books by Fuller would be good to start with? --CDR]
yarvin-norman@CS.YALE.EDU (Norman Yarvin) (05/24/91)
From: yarvin-norman@CS.YALE.EDU (Norman Yarvin) jmc@wuphys.wustl.edu (Jimmy Chen) writes: >As to Thomas Cleary's translation, I don't really know since I've never >read it. But, I have a copy of his Mastering The Art of War. All I >can say about this book is, Don't Buy It. >If his Sunzi Bing Fa is anything like this, it must be awful. I have a copy, and can confirm this. While I don't know too much about military matters, the books that have made the most sense to me, and have been most interesting, are memoirs. Preferably these should be by people who made few mistakes, and so don't lie too often. Examples: Erwin Rommel, _Attacks_ Eugene Sledge, _With the Old Breed_ R. V. Jones, _The Wizard War_ (_Most Secret War_, for those outside the US) Winston Churchill, many books -- Norman Yarvin yarvin-norman@cs.yale.edu "We have not much to learn from them, except what to avoid." - W. Churchill