cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au (Jarrod R Camp) (06/09/91)
From: cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au (Jarrod R Camp) Hi all! A friend has just told me about a new Russian carrier which carries Su-27's, and dosen't use a catapult, but a large ski-ramp! Apparently 3 more are planned for the future. Could someone out there provide a bit more info on this subject? -- Jarrod Camp James Cook University North Qld. Internet: cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au
swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) (06/10/91)
From: swilliam@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Steve Williams) cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au (Jarrod R Camp) writes: > A friend has just told me about a new Russian carrier which carries Su-27's, >and dosen't use a catapult, but a large ski-ramp! Apparently 3 more are >planned for the future. Could someone out there provide a bit more info on >this subject? New carrier class: First of a new class of three or four Russian aircraft carriers of 75,000 tons, laid down at Nikolayev South in December 1988. Designated BLKCON 5 by NATO and possibly to be named Ulyanovsk. According to a Soviet Admiral it is to have catapults for Flanker aircraft but will not be nuclear powered. May be in service in 1996. TBILISI class carriers: Name Laid Down Launched Commissioned ---------------------------- --------- ----------- ------------ TBILISI (ex-Leonid Brezhnev) Jan 1983 5 Dec 1985 1990 RIGA Dec 1985 28 Nov 1988 1992 Displacement, tons: 67,000 full load Dimensions, feet: 990.8 oa; 918.6 wl x 226.4 x 36.1 Flight deck, feet: 990.8 x 196.9 Main machinery: Combined steam and gas turbines; 270,000 hp approx.; 4 shafts Speed, knots: 32 Complement: 2100 including aircrew Fixed wing aircraft: 12 Su-27B2 'Flanker'; 12 MiG-29 'Fulcrum' or 12 Su-25 'Frogfoot' Helicopters: 15-18 Ka-27 'Helix' Structure: The hanger is approximately 610 x 98 x 25 ft. There are two starboard side lifts and a centre-line lift, a ski-jump of about 12 degrees and an angled deck. There are four arrester wires. Opinion: This design is part of a natural progression in naval aviation development from a helicopter carrier to full fixed-wing capabilities, including catapults, which may be fitted in the second of the class. Attempts to assign a specific role, such as extended air defense of the home base, are depressingly naive. Once the composition of the air wing has been established, naval air power projection out of range of Soviet shore-based airfields will become one of many available options. There are also 3 KIEV class "aircraft carriers" and 1 modified KIEV class "aircraft carrier." The KIEV class ships were originally classified as antisubmarine cruisers, but are now classified as tactical aircraft- carrying cruiser. The fourth member has sufficient modifications to justify a separate class. Source: Jane's Fighting Ships 1990-91
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (06/10/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> I heard that the Soviets are using a ski jump type takeoff for the time being because they had significant problems adapting the MiG-29 and the Su-27 to shipboard use. Supposedly, the first five catapult trials launched only the first third of the aircraft into the air! Their first attempts at arrested landings produced similar results, although they seem to have figured that one out. Many pilots were killed in these tests. The second unit of the Tibilisi Class will also have the same launch configuration. The CVN class to follow reportedly will use catapults. [From] the composition of the Soviet CV's air wing, it looks like they're planning to mainly use it for fleet air defense and ASW, not as a power projection unit. I think I read that the Soviets were trying to adapt the MiG-27 for a naval strike role but it was having a hard time getting off the deck with ordnance aboard. -- Allan Bourdius [USMC Officer Candidate/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity] ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or 1069 Morewood Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 The opinions in this post/mail are only those of the author, nobody else.
deichman@cod.nosc.mil (Shane D. Deichman) (06/10/91)
From: deichman@cod.nosc.mil (Shane D. Deichman) cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au (Jarrod R Camp) writes: > A friend has just told me about a new Russian carrier which carries Su-27's, >and dosen't use a catapult, but a large ski-ramp! Actually, referring back to Rex Buddenburg's posting last week, the Soviet "carriers" are nominally referred to as "ASW Cruisers" (due primarily to restrictions on passage through Turkey at the mouth of the Black Sea. Origi- nally called "TBILISI" (for the capital of the Georgian SSR), the Kremlin renamed it "Fleet Admiral of the Soviet Union Gorshkov;" there may have been another permutation involving the name "Brezhnev," but I think that was probably another ship. Since the Soviets haven't endeavored to develop steam catapult technology, they use the "ski jump" (like on Spain's "Principe de Asturias") to provide the necessary parameters for launch. >Apparently 3 more are >planned for the future. Could someone out there provide a bit more info on >this subject? With the present internal turmoil in the Soviet Union, and a steadily decaying economic infrastructure, I doubt Gorbachev would want to exacerbate his present situation by building more "carriers." -shane -- deichman@cod.nosc.mil <affix favorite disclaimer here>
eweinkam@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Eric G. Weinkam) (06/11/91)
From: eweinkam@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Eric G. Weinkam) cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au (Jarrod R Camp) writes: > A friend has just told me about a new Russian carrier which carries Su-27's, >and dosen't use a catapult, but a large ski-ramp! Apparently 3 more are >planned for the future. Could someone out there provide a bit more info on >this subject? The name of the ship is the Triblisi or something like that, it might have been renamed the Breshnev. It is a small carrier (65,000 tons) and will probably only be used to extend the defense of Soviet air space. It is the only one of its kind planned, however, there is a large carrier being built with others like it in the works. As for the Triblisi, it has been launched and conducted flight trials with Su-27's, Mig-29's, and Su-25's. It is thought that only the Mig and the Su-27's will become operational on the ship. Its purpose is to fight off American carrier attack aircraft that might want to assult the surface component of the "bastion". -- Eric G. Weinkam eweinkam@rodan.acs.syr.edu
CV-Aviator@uunet.UU.NET (06/11/91)
From: portal!cup.portal.com!CV-Aviator@uunet.UU.NET >From: cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au (Jarrod R Camp) > A friend has just told me about a new Russian carrier which carries Su-27's, >and dosen't use a catapult, but a large ski-ramp! Apparently 3 more are >planned for the future. Could someone out there provide a bit more info on >this subject? That's right. I don't have any of the hard facts in-front of me, but the USSR carrier, called the Tblisi I think, went to sea a year or so ago and has completed initial flight trials. If memory serves me right, it is slightly smaller than a Nimitz class US carrier, although it is not nuclear powered. It does use an ski-jump instead of catapults. The Soviets call it something like an "aircraft carrying cruiser". -- LT John Parker, USN Internet: CV-Aviator@cup.portal.com Bitnet: 8242p@Navpgs.Bitnet Compuserve: 76116,772
tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) (06/11/91)
From: tarl@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter) What's known about the new soviet carriers is somewhat speculative (they aren't exactly known for their Glasnost :-). In any case, the soviets have (in operation) the Tbilisi, which carries SU-27s or MiG-29s. The Riga is of the same class and supposed to enter in service in '92. These are officially defined as "heavy aircraft cruisers" (tyazholiy avionosnyy kreyser), probably because of the treaty limitations with turkey relating to passage of ships through the bosporus. These carriers have ski jumps and no catapult, but they do use arrested landings. They are conventionally powered, and displace 65,000 tons. The are building a new aircraft carrier, the Ul'yanovsk, to be in service towards the middle of the decade, which is expected to resemble our own carriers. Catapult, no ski jump, dual launch paths, angled landing deck. Expected displacement 75,000 tons. There is a comment that historically the USSR has had trouble building steam catapults, so don't hold your breath waiting for this ship to enter service. The information about the Ul'yanovsk is *much* sketchier than the info about the Tbilisi. They also have four Kiev and modified-Kiev class V/STOL carriers at about 36,000 tons, which have no ski jump and no catapult. Think of these more like our Wasp or Tarawa class carriers. Source: Combat Fleets of the World, 1990/1991. Naval Institute Press. -- Tarl Neustaedter tarl@vos.stratus.com Marlboro, Mass. Stratus Computer Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
wunder@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Wunderlick) (06/12/91)
From: wunder@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Wunderlick) [FIFTY-FIVE lines quoting entire previous article deleted. --CDR] The Tbilisi has been renamed the Adm Kuznetsov, and the second ship of this class has been renamed the Varyag (Sov's are staying away from names of capitol cities :^). This class has a ski-jump bow, conventional propulsion, and is about the size of the US Midway class. The follow-on to this class is the Ul'yanovsk. It is nuclear, has catapults, and is slightly larger than the Kuznetsov. Source: IDR (what I remember from article) Bob Wunderlick David Taylor Research Center Bethesda, MD 20084-5000
tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) (06/14/91)
From: tighe@convex.com (Mike Tighe) cpjrc@groper.jcu.edu.au (Jarrod R Camp) writes: > A friend has just told me about a new Russian carrier which carries Su- > 27's, and dosen't use a catapult, but a large ski-ramp! Could someone out > there provide a bit more info on this subject? I have not heard anything new on this subject for a while now, so what is in actual service right now may be different than what was initially tested. As I recall, the Tbilisi carrier went to sea and had quals with a modified MiG-29 in late 1989. Modifications to the MiG-29 included a tailhook (no kidding) strengthed landing gear, folding wings, and the removal of the intake doors. One thing that was not available on that MiG-29, was aerial re-fueling capability. This will probably come eventually (if not by now), since the range of the MiG-29 is not that great, and is reduced even further with a full AB takeoff. As for the Tbilisi, it has four arresting wires, and it appeared the test pilot tried to catch the first one every time. Takeoffs were accomplished by starting at the end of the deck, putting it in full AB, and letting it rip. No catapults were used, nor do I believe they existed on this carrier. Therefore, they could not perform landings and takeoffs simultaneously. As far as I know, there were no accidents during that initial testing. As for their new class of carrier I believe it will be nuclear powered, with catapults, around 80,000 tons (Tbilisi is around 65,000). The first of these should be entering service RSN. Pictures of it were published in Janes, and Deep Black (Burrows). I would be interested to know if they are now using the Su-27 on their aircraft carriers, if they have aerial refueling capability, and when the new carrier will be put to sea. -- Mike Tighe, Internet: tighe@convex.com, Voice: (214) 497-4206