stern@inmet.UUCP (02/21/85)
[flame on] I can't resist. The people who accuse peter and gary of nonsense are really making a great impression on us observers: scc!steiny asks: >But will Princeton graduates find it easy to get jobs >at companies that subscribe to USENET? Yes. I had no trouble. Strange thing, though. Nobody ever asked me about Princeton's contributions to USENET. Hmmmmm.... Any company that bases its judgement of a person based on the actions of other people should have its recruiting procedures examined. To say "Gee, Biff graduated from Princeton in EECS, so he must be a Professor X clone, and Professor X has the personality of wet cement, so Biff must be like wet cement as well" demonstrates a rather severe case of brain cell damage. In saying that the statements of one person immediately represent the personalities, attitudes and opinions of everyone else at the same net-site, you sound extremely ignorant. Something tells me that having Peter Honeyman on the faculty of Princeton's CS department could hardly be bad public relations for the university. If the great PR powers in Nassau Hall decide that I am wrong, and that Professor Honeyman is personally destroying Princeton's reputation, then I will burn my Princeton degree and immediately apply to Dave's Discount Technical Institute (free toaster with each application). arnold@gatech adds: >It seems that the really important thing to remember about Princeton is that >it is the "Ivy League" school which will hand Brooke Shields a degree. At least she was accepted. And when somebody with a brain decides that Ivy League is no longer a proper adjective describing Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Harvard and Dartmouth, and should be enquoted, please tell me. I wouldn't want to be grammatically incorrect. Please direct all flames to: Hal Stern (class of '84 honey-worshipper) {ihnp4, harpo, ima}!inmet!stern
dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) (02/22/85)
<>
I can't believe I'm the first person to point this out, but... Recently
someone attempted a dig at Princeton by pointing out that they were
going to give a degree to Brooke Shields. (The implication being that
this showed how low Princeton would stoop, if I read between the bytes
correctly.) Isn't anyone else offended by the notion that
attractiveness == stupidity suggested by this line of "reasoning"? Does
anyone have any evidence that Brooke Shields is dumber than the average
Princeton undergraduate? It may appeal to your sense of proportion that
Looks + Smarts = a constant, but *really* now...
Disclaimer: I have no personal connection with Miss Shields, other than
as a satisfied customer.
--
D Gary Grady
Duke U Comp Center, Durham, NC 27706
(919) 684-3695
USENET: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgaryjak@talcott.UUCP (Joe Konstan) (02/24/85)
D. Gary Grady writes: > I can't believe I'm the first person to point this out, but... Recently > someone attempted a dig at Princeton by pointing out that they were > going to give a degree to Brooke Shields. (The implication being that > this showed how low Princeton would stoop, if I read between the bytes > correctly.) Isn't anyone else offended by the notion that > attractiveness == stupidity suggested by this line of "reasoning"? Does > anyone have any evidence that Brooke Shields is dumber than the average > Princeton undergraduate? It may appeal to your sense of proportion that > Looks + Smarts = a constant, but *really* now... "When you die you lose an important part of your life" (or something like that) - B.S. Mithrandir jak@talcott
david@daisy.UUCP (David Schachter) (02/24/85)
In article <1980@inmet.UUCP> version B 2.10.2 9/17/84 chuqui version 1.7 9/23/84; site daisy.UUCP daisy!nsc!hplabs!hpda!fortune!amdcad!decwrl!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!godot!ima!inmet!stern stern@inmet.UUCP writes: >scc!steiny asks: > >>But will Princeton graduates find it easy to get jobs >>at companies that subscribe to USENET? > >Yes. I had no trouble. > I had no problem either and I didn't graduate, I quit! However I have had a hard time recommending other people from Princeton because the EECS Department was so bad as were most other aspects of the place. There are only a few good people there (correction: there >were< a few...) and the ones I knew learned about computers and computing by doing it, not by going to useless classes taught by incompetent "professors" who did more harm than good. Professors want tenure. Princeton grants tenure on the old publish-or-perish scheme. (It also helps to be Male-WASP. Good old Princeton.) Professors at Princeton spend lots of time doing research. They spend less time on students. Little surprise that other universities get the Profs who are interested in teaching while Princeton gets the Profs who are better at researching. Furthermore, the EECS Department at Princeton was underfunded. It was often engaged in internecine battles with the Princeton University Computer Center. To do well, you had to butter up to a professor or a graduate student such as Peter Honeyman. (He was a grad student when I was a freshperson.) Whether or not you knew anything was unimportant. Princeton is allegedly a first-rate school for physics or economics. It is (or was) not a first-rate school for computer "science" or electronic engineering. If I were doing it all over again, I would have applied to Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, MIT, or Berkeley. Possibly even Yale. But not Princeton. >In saying that the statements of one person >immediately represent the personalities, attitudes and opinions of >everyone else at the same net-site, you sound extremely ignorant. I visited Princeton not too long ago and I asked a number of EECS students their opinion of the future of computing. They echoed what they had been taught. Their opinion of the future revolved around VAXen to which are attached SUN workstations. They could even tell me the model numbers. They are woefully ignorant of the many possible directions of future computing. So while I agree with your statement that we cannot judge the many by the statements (or the actions) of the few or the one, I believe it is possible to use the source of one's degree as a valid measure of one's likely competence. Not the only measure, mind you! A far more important measure is "what work have you done? How much in industry?" But if a student mouths the opinions of his teachers as well as the facts he has been taught, and if many, randomly selected students do the same, I can reasonably conclude that any student coming from the same set of teachers is likely to have the same opinions. I can't depend on it: to do so would be stereo- typing. But I can use it as a rough guide when I am inundated with a thousand resumes from all over the world. By the way, I'm not especially ignorant, my friends say. Avoid ad hominem arguments, if you please. > >Something tells me that having Peter Honeyman on the faculty of >Princeton's CS department could hardly be bad public relations for >the university. If the great PR powers in Nassau Hall decide that >I am wrong, and that Professor Honeyman is personally destroying >Princeton's reputation, then I will burn my Princeton degree and >immediately apply to Dave's Discount Technical Institute (free >toaster with each application). I'm sure Mr. Honeyman is a wonderful person. Honorable people tell me so. But you misunderstand Nassau Hall (the location of the powerful people of Princeton University.) Nassau Hall is interested in only one thing: the preservation of Princeton. Nassau Hall is not concerned with Princeton's reputation except as it will affect Princeton's ability to keep its coffers full. If Mr. Honeyman's reputation pulls more prospective students to Princeton than it puts off, Nassau Hall will be happy. Even if Mr. Honeyman were to do something awful, say, embezzlement or child molesting, Nassau Hall would not fire him if he continued to attract more students. Princeton's business is Princeton. Princeton's business is not teaching or research. It is the preservation of Princeton. How else do you think Princeton survived that past 220 years? (Yes, the school is older than the country.) (By the way, I am >not< suggesting that Mr. Honeyman has done anything illegal or even contemplated doing something illegal. As I said above, I'm sure he is a truely wonderful Princeton professor and a delightful human being.) Oh, my Technical Institute doesn't give out toasters anymore. We used to but the Princeton engineer who designed them put the slots on the bottom, not on the top. Seems he spent more time learning theory and not enought actual >engineering<. >Please direct all flames to: >Hal Stern (class of '84 honey-worshipper) >{ihnp4, harpo, ima}!inmet!stern I see by your parenthesized comment that you have learned the Princeton lesson. Here is another lesson I learned at Princeton: given enough money, you can buy anything. Take the Princeton Inn College, for example. Malcom S. Forbes Sr. gave Princeton how many million $ ? Two or three? And in return, Princeton renamed the P.I.C. after his son, Forbe's Jr. Perhaps if I gave them enough money, I could get them to rename Forbes College to Schachter College. Princeton consists (consisted) mostly of moneygrubbers, hangers-on, preppie students, would-be preppie students, and outcasts. Independent thinking is (was) discouraged. Conformity is (was) the watchword. "Be a Princeton Man." Then you won't have to think for yourself anymore. The opinions expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of my company, its employees, or its affiliates. They soley represent the views of the author who is exclusively responsible. {There is at least one redeeming feature: the town of Princeton has two excellent ice cream stores: Thomas Sweet and Hagendaaz. On the other hand, there were no fast food joints when I was there. On the other other hand, there is an excellent student-run FOR-PROFIT campus radio station, WPRB, and a well-run science fiction society, Infinity Ltd.}
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (The Phantom) (02/24/85)
In article <61@daisy.UUCP> david@daisy.UUCP (David Schachter) writes: >> >I had no problem either and I didn't graduate, I quit! However I have had a >hard time recommending other people from Princeton because the EECS Department >was so bad as were most other aspects of the place. There are only a few >good people there (correction: there >were< a few...) and the ones I knew >learned about computers and computing by doing it, not by going to useless >classes taught by incompetent "professors" who did more harm than good. David goes on to describe a large number of 'problems' at Princeton. I'm not going to repeat them, since you can find the parent article. I'm not going to paraphrase them, since you can probably figure them out for yourself. I'm not even going to try to refute them. I don't have experience at Princeton, but the problems David sees aren't unique to Princeton. From my experience (and if you follow CACM, it seems to be endemic) the problems David saw at Princeton are the problems most serious students see at most universities and colleges. I'm like David. I quit, too, when I realized that as an undergrad I had more useful information on a given subject than the professors that were 'teaching' me. I once took a COBOL (*ugh*) course where the definition of structured programming was 'no gotos'. You can do a LOT of interesting things to a structured program to make it unreadable without gotos, especially in COBOL. What I've found is that the people who are truly interested in teaching end up getting forced out-- tenure is aimed at tha researchers and politicians. People who care about classes and students do so on their own time, at their own risk. There has to be something terribly wrong when a student who is truly interested in getting an advanced degree and joining a university is told to go into industry. I originally hoped to teach (I may someday, anyway). I find it extremely distressing that every professor I ever took classes from (and I am serious when I say every) told me not to teach. The money is bad, the work arrangements are bad, you spend all of your time doing things like getting tenure, publishing papers, hassling comittees, doing research so you can publish papers. Is something missing in there? Right-- you haven't heard the words 'teach' or 'student' yet. From what I've seen, most curriculums are woefully outdated, and very slow to change. Many places are still teaching things that were outdated years ago. Worse, some places don't recognize that fact. The problems David sees aren't Princeton's problems. Their the problems of a university environment that has its priorities wrong-- the politics of the position have overwhelmed the fact that professors are supposed to be there to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. This ins't restricted to a single campus, its endemic. -- From behind the eight ball: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA We'll be recording at the Paradise Friday night. Live, on the Death label.
neal@denelcor.UUCP (Neal Weidenhofer) (02/27/85)
************************************************************************** > Does > anyone have any evidence that Brooke Shields is dumber than the average > Princeton undergraduate? > -- > D Gary Grady How about her movies? (.001 :-) Regards, "The Devil made Neal Weidenhofer me do it." Denelcor, Inc. <hao|csu-cs|brl-bmd>!denelcor!neal
kevyn@watarts.UUCP (Kevyn Collins-Thompson) (02/28/85)
> Princeton is allegedly a first-rate school for physics or economics. It is > (or was) not a first-rate school for computer "science" or electronic > engineering. If I were doing it all over again, I would have applied to > Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, MIT, or Berkeley. Possibly even Yale. But not > Princeton. How about Waterloo? |~:-> -- Kevyn Collins-Thompson University of Waterloo, Waterloo, ON, CANADA !! ....{allegra|clyde|utzoo|ihnp4|decvax}!watmath!watarts!kevyn
stern@inmet.UUCP (02/28/85)
[] Whether or not it's my personal job to defend Princeton University's reputation, I think I should point out a few problems with daisy!david's point-for-point rebuttal of my original article. Like any medium to large university, Princeton has a student-faculty ratio that is O(10-1). That means that probably 8 students will never have anything to do with the professor, and the two who are most interested in the material will get all the attention they need. Why do you think Princeton requires undergraduates to write a thesis? There are plenty of good people at Princeton (and several more on the way...) I would strongly suggest that daisy!david call the University and ask about A Campaign for Princeton, the recent EECS department split, the recruiting done by the EE&CS departments, and who is being considered for tenure. He might find that he has a lot to learn before opening his mouth again. Two final comments: If you want to learn how to take apart TV sets and visit local electricity outlets, then I know some great vo-tech schools that teach this for a lot less than $15,000 a year. Nobody says you can't learn "real engineering" when you are taught theory. That's what independent work is for. Unless you are so lazy that you decided not to do any independent work. All of the laboratory experience in the world will not help someone who lacks the motivation to get up off of his/her rear end and learn something by themselves. And WPRB is NOT A FOR-PROFIT RADIO STATION. They are run in compliance with the IRS regulations governing non-profit corporations. They receive no funding from the University; the station is commercial so that it can pay its bills. It is the smallest of the six commercial college stations, and one of the only ones that does not employ professional radio salespeople. Check your facts. Or read "Welcome to Princeton: A Guide to Your Freshman Year" --Hal Stern (no funny comments here. I forgot to insert 1 million smiley faces last time and people picked on me. If it happens again I'm routing all of my mail to /dev/null).
cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) (03/02/85)
> Disclaimer: I have no personal connection with Miss Shields, other than > as a satisfied customer. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Mind following up on this? Does Miss Shields run some business of which we are not aware? Or are you a photographer who has employed her talents as a model? --Chuck -- - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ All opinions expressed herein are my {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem own and not those of my employer, my {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ friends, or my avocado plant. :-}
david@daisy.UUCP (David Schachter) (03/04/85)
Mr. Stern tries to change the discussion from whether Princeton tends to tenure
professors who can't teach into a discussion of student/teacher ratios. I
maintain my claim that Princeton professors, by and large, cannot teach well.
Mr. Stern suggests that I call the University and ask about the current
fund-raising/marketing campaign and about changes in the EECS department.
I have done better than that: I visited the place a few weeks ago. Nothing
much has changed since I left, three years ago. Mr. Stern follows this
suggestion with a nasty comment. His comment is out of place and does not
advance this discussion.
Mr. Stern points to vocational schools as great places to learn to "take
apart TV sets". He claims that Princeton teaches theory and allows the
student to do independent work to learn how things work in the real world.
Unfortunately, independent work is precisely that: independent. Students
usually work alone or in a team of two. "Real world" projects tend to
involve many engineers and others. Princeton does not teach would-be
engineers how to work in "real world" environments. Moreover, Princeton
professors do not have much "real world" experience. Finally, there is
a world of difference between an independent project and a commercial
system. At Princeton, students are not given any indication of this. There
is little communication between Princeton and industry.
Mr. Stern claims "Nobody says you can't learn 'real engineering' when you are
taught theory." I disagree. Princeton students learn little about how to
make programs reliable or maintainable. Princeton students learn little about
cost estimating or scheduling. Princeton students learn little about
documentation or system design. Princeton students learn little about
debugging. "Independent study" is not an adequate solution. One might as
well advocate the teaching of theory by giving the student an all-day pass
to the library! Knowledge doesn't just "soak in."
Finally, Mr. Stern indicates that WPRB (the campus radio station) is not a
for-profit radio station. In this he is correct and I was mistaken. I was
merely parroting what the University told me when I was recruited. It was
dumb of me to expect University marketing hype to be truthful. I should have
known better.
-- David Schachter
[The opinions expressed in this article are soley those of the author and are
not necessarily those of my company, its employees, or subsidiaries.]
{It's quite easy, Mrs. Smythe-Worthington. You just put the blinking dot on
the area of the world you want to destroy and press the button.}dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) (03/04/85)
<> > > Disclaimer: I have no personal connection with Miss Shields, other than > > as a satisfied customer. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Mind following up on this? Does Miss Shields run some business of which we > are not aware? Or are you a photographer who has employed her talents as a > model? Well, I was joking of course, but since you ask... Anyone who has seen a Brooke Shields film is in a sense a "customer" of her company. Like most Hollywood types, Shields contracts her services through a corporation (called, if memory serves, Brooke Shields, Inc.). This has some tax advantages, although what with rules about personal holding companies, maximum tax on personal service income, and who knows what else, I'm sure accountants and lawyers are kept quite busy. If you want some more details on these shenanigans (though not specify to Shields) you might read The Movie Business Book ed. by Jason E. Squire. That's a fascinating book in many respects. Did you know, for instance, that a theater normally gets only 5 cents of a 50-cent increase in ticket prices (the rest going to the distributor)? As for my being a photographer... As a matter of fact I was, at one time. And while I never photographed Brooke Shields, I did shoot a film commercial featuring Miss South Carolina, back in 1973 I think. The Miss S. C. in question did quite a few commercials, for Evinrude among others. (The one in question was for a salt-water resistant wood.) At the end of the shoot Miss S. C. passed out autographed photos to the various agency people, company executives, and other hangers on. Except me. Me she gave her business card. I asked the producer what he thought she might have meant by that. "Well," he mused. "Maybe she meant business." (All true, every byte.) -- D Gary Grady Duke U Comp Center, Durham, NC 27706 (919) 684-3695 USENET: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary
stern@inmet.UUCP (03/10/85)
[] Mr. Stern also finished this discussion with you using private mail which is where it belongs. Mr. Stern ihnp4!inmet!stern