apizza@PICA.ARMY.MIL (CCL-L) (06/12/91)
From: Arthur Pizza (CCL-L) <apizza@PICA.ARMY.MIL> I am interested in hearing recommendations for secondary armament systems for a future armored vehicle. One system would have to be a CO-AX, and one a cupola mount. Both systems would require remote operations. Just to make it interesting I would like the MG to have better range then that of the standard 7.62 weapons. I am also interested in remote sites recommendations. Any specific MG information would be greatly appreciated as well as future developments by non-usa military in this area. Ammo storage and size is a concern. Brand names of cupolas are a interest.
cfreund@PICA.ARMY.MIL (CCL-L) (06/13/91)
From: "Charles T. Freund" (CCL-L) <cfreund@PICA.ARMY.MIL> Try looking to some of the helicopter armaments for secondary armament systems. They are relatively lightweight, and while not 360 degree traversing, they usually have a pretty wide field of fire. All you have to do is turn them upside-down and add a sighting system. (note elevation and depression would be reversed if system is inverted) M5 - Also called the THUMPER this is a M75 40mm Grenade Launcher used on various models of UH-1 Hueys. Weight: 484lbs (w/ 302 rounds), Traverse: 60 deg left or right, Elevation: 15 to -35deg, ROF: 230 spm M6 - Quad M60C 7.62mm machineguns (2 left, 2 right) used on UH-1s. A single gun could be adapted for use as a secondary armament system. EL: 9 to -66deg, Trav: 82deg total M21 - This is an updated M6, replacing the 4 M60C with 2 M134 7.62mm miniguns with two 7 tube 2.75in rocket launchers. A single minigun mount could be adapted. EL: 10 to -85deg, Trav: 82deg total M28 - Chin turret on the AH-1G Cobra containing a M134 7.62mm minigun and M129 40mm grenade launcher (or 2 M134's or 2 M129's). EL: 10.6 to -50deg Trav: 107.5 deg left or right XM51 - Nose mounted M129 40mm grenade launcher on the AH-56. EL: 18 to -70deg, Trav: 100 deg left or right XM52 - Belly-mounted XM140 30mm automatic cannon on the AH-56. EL: 27 to -60deg, Trav: 200 deg left or right XM53 - XM51 with a M134 minigun instead of M129. M97 - Chin mounted UTS (Universal Turret System), M197 3-barrel 20mm gatling gun on the AH-1. EL: 20 to -50deg, Trav: 110deg left or right XM120 - Nose mounted XM140 30mm automatic gun on the AH-1G EL: 15 to -40, Trav: 110 left or right M139 - The chin mounted Area Weapon System on the AH-64. This consists on the M230 30mm chain gun. (mounting this uside-down would actually put the gun in the correct orientation, it normally hangs upside down from the helicopter). EL: 11 to -60deg Trav: 100deg left or right This is just a sampling of the US helicpter systems available. Many systems were designed to be adaptible to various guns and calibers. Caliber - There are few calibers readily available for the secondary armament roles. Normally 7.62 NATO is considered the minimum caliber and 20 and 30mm cannon cal is starting to get a bit large, along with 40mm grenades. This leaves us with the 7.62, 12.7, 20, 30 (30x113), and 40 (40x53R) mm rounds. There is also a 15x115mm Belgium round and a 16mm US round in development. There is also a 30mm grenade used by the USSR. Guns - There are a number of guns availible in these calibers ; self powered, externally powered, single vs. multibarreled, etc. Gatling type guns use an inordanate amount of ammunition, and are usually too heavy for such an application. A self powered gun has the advantage that it can be removed from the vehicle and still be functional. My choice would be to bring back the Vickers or Lewis guns in .303 British. I need a continued source of cheap ammo for my Enfield.
nanis@llex.ll.mit.edu (Jeff Nanis) (06/15/91)
From: nanis@llex.ll.mit.edu (Jeff Nanis) cfreund@PICA.ARMY.MIL (CCL-L) writes: >Caliber - There are few calibers readily available for the secondary >armament roles. Normally 7.62 NATO is considered the minimum caliber and >20 and 30mm cannon cal is starting to get a bit large, along with 40mm >grenades. This leaves us with the 7.62, 12.7, 20, 30 (30x113), and 40 >(40x53R) mm rounds. There is also a 15x115mm Belgium round and a 16mm US >round in development. There is also a 30mm grenade used by the USSR. I seem to recall that there are actually two different calibers of 40 mm grenade: a low-velocity round for the M79/M203 that can also be fired from the Mk19, as well as a high-velocity round for the Mk19 and the various helo grenade launchers. Does anyone have more data on this? -- Jeff Nanis nanis@ll.mit.edu An official opinion? Not on my life.
consp04@bingsuna.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Dan Boyd) (06/15/91)
From: consp04@bingsuna.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Dan Boyd) When they were designing the M-1, they looked at various kinds of secondary and coaxial armament. One member of the team wanted twin .50 caliber machine guns for the co-axial armament. They'd be stable and accurate out to hundreds and hundreds of meters -- but it was discovered that they wouldn't be much use, since the bullet wouldn't explode. They later settled on the 30mm M-25 Bushmaster cannon used on the Bradley as the best choice for the co-ax weapon. The commander gets a .50 caliber machine gun, but it's not stabilized so you can't use it on aircraft unless they're really low. The loader gets an M-60 as well, which is a new thing -- the M-60 and the M-48 didn't have guns for the loader. [That information came from Orr Kelly's 'King of the Killing Zone.] But production M-1s don't have a 30-mm cannon as their co-ax. This wasn't mentioned in the book. They have a 7.62mm machine gun. That's right - just an M-60. Why? My guess is, anything that you're going to shoot the Bushmaster at is worth shooting the main gun at. If it's got a THICK metal skin, you'll need a sabot or a shaped-charge shell. If you could damage it with a 30mm armor-piercing round, then why not hit it with a regular HE 115mm round -- that way, you could get it with a near-miss as well. The co-axial armament is for shooting at people with when you're in a hurry, hence a machine gun. Suppose we're driving around through the woods with the commander and loader at their guns. And someone pops up and sprays the top of the tank with an assault rifle. Now the commander and loader are probably out of action, and the gunner still has the co-axial MG to hose down the area with. You can't hose down a row of bushes with a 30mm cannon. Also, you've only got to carry three kinds of ammo: Main-gun, .50 caliber, and 7.62mm. You don't want a minigun or a Vulcan as your co-axial armament either -- they eat ammo like there's no tomorrow. Aircraft armament is designed to throw as much of the ammo as possible out in as little time as possible -- because the aircraft is cruising by really fast. If you didn't use a minigun on the helicopter, the bullet strikes would be spread out too far. -- Daniel F. Boyd consp04@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (06/19/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> >But production M-1s don't have a 30-mm cannon as their co-ax. This >wasn't mentioned in the book. They have a 7.62mm machine gun. That's >right - just an M-60. Why? The loader's and coaxial MG's on the M1 series are M240 7.62mm of Belgian design and manufacture. (They are pretty much scaled up versions of the M249 SAW) One benefit to having the gun at the loader's station is that if the coax gets damaged or otherwise becomes unserviceable, the loader's gun can be used as a replacement. Another benefit is it gives the loader something to hang on to when he's standing up in his hatch with the tank on the move. Also, it gives the M1 three usable weapons against infantry instead of two--no APERS rounds exist as of yet for the 120mm gun. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Bourdius [USMC Officer Candidate/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity] ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or 1069 Morewood Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 "I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused" "Give, expecting nothing thereof." The opinions in this post/mail are only those of the author, nobody else.
kozowski@ohsu.EDU (Eric Kozowski) (06/19/91)
From: kozowski@ohsu.EDU (Eric Kozowski) In article <1991Jun18.074427.15056@amd.com> nanis@llex.ll.mit.edu (Jeff Nanis) writes: >I seem to recall that there are actually two different calibers of >40 mm grenade: a low-velocity round for the M79/M203 that can also be fired >from the Mk19, as well as a high-velocity round for the Mk19 and the various >helo grenade launchers. Does anyone have more data on this? This is correct. The max effective range of the 203 is about 250-300M. The Mk19 is about 1000M. These numbers are approximate and just off the top of my head. Also, the Mk19 rounds come linked and CANNOT be unlinked. Also, I don't think that 203 rounds can be fired out of the Mk19, but could be wrong (I've never heard of anybody trying this.) I think they wouldn't have sufficent gas output to operate the Mk19. -- Eric Kozowski kozowski@ohsu.edu Networks & Computing Dept. Oregon Health Sciences University
wdr@wang.com (William Ricker) (06/19/91)
From: wdr@wang.com (William Ricker)
I've been intrigued by the 40mm Autmatic Grenade Launchers (Mk.17 &
Mk.19?). I used to see reports of a "Bushmaster turret" -- an
overgrown cupola -- for AFV/IFVs that combined a 40mm AGL and a 25mm
dual-feed chain gun, but not lately. I'd have to check my clip file, but
I think it was on Ford's proposal for (eventual) Bradley. Combine these,
either as cupola/turreted or remote-operated with a remote-operated
ITOW or FOGM launcher and you'd put some punch on your grunt-hauler
without making it look like a tank with a rumble seat.
(I think the Bradley has too long a nose for a non-tank: it makes
Senators think it should be able to trade main-gun shots with tanks
and win, and might attract more attention from anti-tank gunners than
a more traditionally designed APC/IFV/CFV -- which may be good for the tanks
its in formation with, but that is *not* how I think AFVs should be
protecting tanks in combined operations!)
(Has anyone commented on the similarity of the M113 ACAV variant, with
two .50 HMGs topside, to the "Female/Infantry Tank" of WWI, esp. given that
no one with any sense rode *in* them in 'Nam?)
---
/s/ Bill Ricker wdr@wang.wang.com
"The Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one."
*** Warning: This account is not authorized to express opinions. ***bxr307@csc1.anu.edu.au (06/20/91)
From: bxr307@csc1.anu.edu.au In article <1991Jun19.011717.13143@cbnews.cb.att.com>, ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) writes: > > The loader's and coaxial MG's on the M1 series are M240 7.62mm of > Belgian design and manufacture. (They are pretty much scaled up > versions of the M249 SAW) Err, methinks you have that the other way around. The US M240 is in fact the FN-MAG58 GPMG. It was adopted after the M60e3 was proven to be such a dog. In trials the US Army found that the FN-MAG58 was _so_ reliable that the only way they could get a stoppage was to pour sand into it, whereas the M60 suffered a meantime between stoppages of only some 5-7,000 rounds. They also found the M60 tended to fall to pieces after about 70-100,000 rounds whereas the FN-MAG58 only had some cracking evident in the reciever. The M249 is a slightly modified version of the FN-Minimi LMG and that is in turn basically a scaled down FN-MAG58. -- Brian Ross "If we got it so wrong in the Middle East yesterday, what makes you think we are going to get it right this time?" Arthur Schlesinger
cfreund@PICA.ARMY.MIL (CCL-L) (06/20/91)
From: "Charles T. Freund" (CCL-L) <cfreund@PICA.ARMY.MIL> > They later settled on the 30mm M-25 Bushmaster cannon used on >the Bradley as the best choice for the co-ax weapon. The Bushamaster used on the Bradley is the M242 25mm Chain gun. The only other weapon in competition for the Bradley (that I recall) was the XM241, also a 25mm weapon. True, the firepower available from the M242 would make for a formidible coax weapon, but the gun fires a 25x137mm round. The M242 is the primary weapon (gun) in the Bradley, with only 300 ready rounds; and that is without having to compete with a main gun for space. It would have to be quite some turret to house both a M242 AND a main gun system. As for hosing down bushes with a 25mm (or 30mm) round, that is what the M242 was originally designed to do. Rapid fire 25mm HE rounds do just fine. (BTW - the Abrams uses M240's rather than M60's for its 7.62mm armaments) Charles T. Freund <cfreund@PICA.ARMY.MIL> ARDEC, CCAC, Picatinny Arsenal SMCAR-CCL-LG, Ground Weapons Team
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (06/20/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> >Mk.19?). I used to see reports of a "Bushmaster turret" -- an >overgrown cupola -- for AFV/IFVs that combined a 40mm AGL and a 25mm >dual-feed chain gun, but not lately. The latest development of the USMC's amtrac, the AAV7A2 mounts a turret with a M2HB .50 caliber MG and a Mk 19 40mm MG. Allan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Bourdius [USMC Officer Candidate/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity] ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or 1069 Morewood Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 "I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused" "Give, expecting nothing thereof." The opinions in this post/mail are only those of the author, nobody else.