dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) (06/21/91)
From: dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) I'm curious about an alleged German variant of the F-4 Phantom which was included in Avalon Hill's simulation game "Flight Leader" (1986). Admittedly this is not the most authoritative source, but since the people at A.H. usually seem to do their homework pretty well, I assume it probably has at least *some* basis in reality. The aircraft is supposedly designated the ICE, although I don't know what that stands for, and seemed to be dedicated to the air- superiority role. Improvements over existing Phantoms seemed to be mainly in the areas of intercept radar and maneuverability, both of which in game-terms came out equivalent to those of the F-15. I think there was a major improvement in speed as well, and that the ICE was supposed to enter service that year--1986. This sounds rather like the ca. 1973 situation when McDonnell- Douglas supporters argued that the souped-up F-4S (with leading- edge slats, etc.) made the brand-new Tomcat unnecessary, doesn't it? (Except that the F-15 already had been around for a while.) Can somebody shed some light on this? Is this just a product of the game designers' imaginations, was the ICE a stillborn idea, or does this Luftwaffe super-Phantom actually exist? If so, does it really approach the Eagle's performance? Finally, as a follow-on question, if the Germans *don't* have this Phantom-on-steroids available, isn't it about time they started thinking about acquiring reasonably up-to-date air- superiority fighters and/or interceptors? These former-DDR MiG- 29 Fulcrums of which they seem to be disposing so casually probably could out-fight anything in the current Luftwaffe inventory (other than the hypothetical ICE), couldn't they? (German friends: yes, I know, this is all irrelevant because of course the BRD would never be involved in any conflict without its NATO allies, including the U.S., who can supply plenty of air-superiority assets. But just supposing . . .) -- David G. Thompson (dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) . . . no need to qualify my opinions; I'm in academia!
bxr307@csc1.anu.edu.au (06/22/91)
From: bxr307@csc1.anu.edu.au In article <1991Jun21.013542.12347@cbnews.cb.att.com>, dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) writes: > From: dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) > I'm curious about an alleged German variant of the F-4 Phantom > which was included in Avalon Hill's simulation game "Flight > Leader" (1986). Admittedly this is not the most authoritative > source, but since the people at A.H. usually seem to do their > homework pretty well, I assume it probably has at least *some* > basis in reality. [...] > Can somebody shed some light on this? Is this just a product of > the game designers' imaginations, was the ICE a stillborn idea, > or does this Luftwaffe super-Phantom actually exist? If so, does > it really approach the Eagle's performance? > This aircraft was a proposed upgrade to the West German F4E's by adding new engines and the same radar as the F15. However due to cost considerations it was not carried on with. Instead the decision was made to go with the EFA (European Fighter Aircraft), which is a next generation air-superiority aircraft, similar in concept to the F15, in that its meant to be very manouvreable and carry a quite effective radar coupled with BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missiles of the AIM120 AMRAAM type and the ASRAAM (which appears about to be abandoned now anyway). Basically it looks a bit like a cross between the F16 (it has an intake set well back from the nose under the fuselage) and the Taiwanese IDF (both have twin engines with a single central tail). The most distinctive feature is the way in which the intakes "smile" (curve upwards at their outer edges) in a "U" shape, giving the aircraft a distinctive anthromorphic shape. Interestingly at the moment the plans call for the aircraft to mount an infra-red search and track device in front of the cockpit. Something which was abandoned on the US ATF design due to costs. > Finally, as a follow-on question, if the Germans *don't* have > this Phantom-on-steroids available, isn't it about time they > started thinking about acquiring reasonably up-to-date air- > superiority fighters and/or interceptors? These former-DDR MiG- > 29 Fulcrums of which they seem to be disposing so casually > probably could out-fight anything in the current Luftwaffe > inventory (other than the hypothetical ICE), couldn't they? See the above comments about EFA. Its still very much in the pipeline at the moment. The prototype has not yet even flown. However it was felt back in the early 1980's when the F4 upgrade was proposed that would be cheaper in the long run to introduce a new aircraft, rather than try and keep the old airframes (which by then were already starting to get a little long in the tooth) going. BTW When suggesting that the MiG29 could outfly anything available to the Luftwaffe you should be careful. Pilot quality and doctrine are still a very big determinant of how well an aircraft fights. The Soviet methodology of close ground control over fighter aircraft means that in all likelihood any Russian pilots would not be allowed to make full use of what their mounts can achieve. Presuming of course their training is up to the standard of the Luftwaffe/NATO air forces. Which is something I doubt. -- Brian Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If we got it so wrong in the Middle East yesterday, what makes you think we are going to get it right this time?" Arthur Schlesinger --------------------------------------------------------------------------
daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk (06/22/91)
From: daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk In article <1991Jun21.013542.12347@cbnews.cb.att.com>, dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) writes: > > The aircraft [German variant of the F-4 Phantom] is supposedly > designated the ICE, although I don't > know what that stands for, and seemed to be dedicated to the air- > superiority role. Improvements over existing Phantoms seemed to > be mainly in the areas of intercept radar and maneuverability, > both of which in game-terms came out equivalent to those of the > F-15. I think there was a major improvement in speed as well, > and that the ICE was supposed to enter service that year--1986. As far as I remember, the F-4F upgrade did go ahead, and basically involved installing the F/A-18A's radar, along with other avionics improvments. However, for the game to claim that the improved F-4F is equivalent to the F-15 would seem to be very generous! > > This sounds rather like the ca. 1973 situation when McDonnell- > Douglas supporters argued that the souped-up F-4S (with leading- > edge slats, etc.) made the brand-new Tomcat unnecessary, doesn't > it? (Except that the F-15 already had been around for a while.) Well, they may have argued this but the F-14 replaced a lot of F-4s anyway. > Finally, as a follow-on question, if the Germans *don't* have > this Phantom-on-steroids available, isn't it about time they > started thinking about acquiring reasonably up-to-date air- > superiority fighters and/or interceptors? These former-DDR MiG- > 29 Fulcrums of which they seem to be disposing so casually > probably could out-fight anything in the current Luftwaffe > inventory (other than the hypothetical ICE), couldn't they? > The Germans are still taking part in the Eurofighter development program, but whether they actually buy any remains to be seen. The MiG-29 is a lot more maneuverable than the F-4F, although probably inferior in radar and avionics. Dave -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Hastings | JANET: daveh@uk.ac.oxford.vax VAX Systems Programmer | INTERNET: Oxford University Computing Service| daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (06/22/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> >if the Germans *don't* have >this Phantom-on-steroids available, isn't it about time they >started thinking about acquiring reasonably up-to-date air- >superiority fighters and/or interceptors? What about all their Tornados? As far as I know, they bought both the strike and the interceptor variants. Allan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Bourdius [USMC Officer Candidate/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity] ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or 1069 Morewood Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 "I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused" "Give, expecting nothing thereof." The opinions in this post/mail are only those of the author, nobody else.
daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk (06/25/91)
From: daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk In article <1991Jun22.040435.12@cbnews.cb.att.com>, ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) writes: > > What about all their Tornados? As far as I know, they bought both the > strike and the interceptor variants. No, the Luftwaffe only operates the strike Tornado. Dave -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Hastings | JANET: daveh@uk.ac.oxford.vax VAX Systems Programmer | INTERNET: Oxford University Computing Service| daveh@vax.oxford.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
adam@ste.dyn.bae.co.uk (Adam Curtin) (06/25/91)
From: Adam Curtin <adam@ste.dyn.bae.co.uk> In article <1991Jun21.013542.12347@cbnews.cb.att.com> dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) writes: >Finally, as a follow-on question, if the Germans *don't* have >this Phantom-on-steroids available, isn't it about time they >started thinking about acquiring reasonably up-to-date air- >superiority fighters and/or interceptors? These former-DDR MiG- >29 Fulcrums of which they seem to be disposing so casually >probably could out-fight anything in the current Luftwaffe >inventory (other than the hypothetical ICE), couldn't they? [ From an old Flight International ... ] On May 16 1988 the governments of Britain, West Germany and Italy signed an memorandum of understanding giving the go-ahead for full-scale development of the Eurofighter. Spain, became the fourth partner later that year. Aeritalia, British Aerospace, CASA and MBB formally launched the Eurofighter company to produce the EFA (European Fighter Aircraft) in June 1986, against an initial requirement of 810 aircraft (250+ for Great Britain, 200 for Italy, 100 for Spain and 200+ for West Germany). The aircraft is a canard delta with a maximum take-off weight of 17,000kg, a wing area of 50 sq.m., and two turbofans giving a total thrust of 180kN. The prototypes will have Turbo Union RB.199 engines (from the Tornado), but production aircraft will be powered by Eurojet EJ.200s, which are being developed by a consortium of Rolls-Royce, Fiat, MTU and SENER. A multimode pulse-Doppler radar will be fitted, possibly an adaptation of the Hughes APG-65 (Emerald), a new Ferranti/Fiar/Inisel unit designated ECR-90, or Ferranti's existing Blue Vixen. Armament will include an internal gun plus AMRAAM and ASRAAM. EFA will be optimised for air-to-air roles but will have a secondary air-to-surface capability. A two-seat combat-capable trainer is also planned. [ From BAe Dynamics' (unclassified!) June '91 newsletter ... ] The first EFA starboard wing was completed last month at BAe Military Aircraft's Warton, England site and shipped to MBB in Germany where final assembly of the first development aircraft will take place. The starboard wing and the front fuselage, also manufactured at Warton, will be married to the centre fuselage made by MBB, with the rear fuselage supplied by CASA and the port wing made by Alenia of Italy. The second EFA development aircraft will be assembled at Warton commencing this month - both aircraft will be flying by mid-'92, and all seven development aircraft will be flying by early '94, with first deliveries scheduled for 1996. Adam -- You have just begun reading the sentence you have just finished reading.
adam@ste.dyn.bae.co.uk (Adam Curtin) (06/25/91)
From: Adam Curtin <adam@ste.dyn.bae.co.uk> In article <1991Jun22.040435.12@cbnews.cb.att.com> ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) writes: >>if the Germans *don't* have >>this Phantom-on-steroids available, isn't it about time they >>started thinking about acquiring reasonably up-to-date air- >>superiority fighters and/or interceptors? > >What about all their Tornados? As far as I know, they bought both the >strike and the interceptor variants. No, they only bought the IDS (Interdictor Strike). Only the British and Saudi air forces operate both variants, to the best of my knowledge. Italy, Jordan and West Germany bought the IDS only and Oman bought only the ADV. Although its performance in a turning fight surprised a lot of its critics, and the Phantom would mean some pretty powerful steroids to stay with it, the ADV is a long-range stand-off interceptor rather than a knife-range dogfighter like the F16. That's the role which the EFA is intended to fill. Although the EFA prototype will not fly for another year, it bears an uncanny relationship to the EAP developed by Eurofighter collaborators BAe, MBB and Aeritalia (as well as others), which in turn grew from the BAe Agile Combat Aircraft programme. The EAP technology demonstrator exceeded M1.1 on its first flight on August 8 1986. Adam -- You have just begun reading the sentence you have just finished reading.