Fredriksson_Urban_NOK@kista.relay.nokia.fi (06/25/91)
From: Fredriksson_Urban_NOK@kista.relay.nokia.fi In a cutlery magazine, in an article on swords, the author discusses the ability to use 'anything handy', and mentions an occasion in the 1950's when someone successfully used a shovel against multiple opponents. He then goes on to say: "Certainly the use of a shovel as a formal weapon wasn't (and isn't) taught during Advanced Infantry Training". I assume he is talking about conditions in the USA. That statement surprised me, since at least here in Sweden the shovel has a reputation of beeing a most effective weapon in close quarters. I've always had the impression that the use of a shovel in hand-to-hand combat has been a part of such a training program. Now I'm curious: What about other countries? [mod.note: I can't say that it was taught, but I've read numerous accounts of German troops fighting with their entrenching tools during WWII. Sometimes, one edge of the blade was sharpened for this purpose. - Bill ] -- Urban Fredriksson, Stockholm, Sweden (who ONLY speaks for himself!) urban@kista.relay.nokia.fi "A weapon is a device for making your enemy change his mind."
madmax@gargoyle.uchicago.edu (Max Abramowitz) (06/27/91)
From: madmax@gargoyle.uchicago.edu (Max Abramowitz) In <1991Jun25.024419.27437@cbnews.cb.att.com> >[mod.note: I can't say that it was taught, but I've read numerous >accounts of German troops fighting with their entrenching tools >during WWII. Sometimes, one edge of the blade was sharpened for this >purpose. - Bill ] Perhaps you mean WWI rather than WWII. In "All Quiet on the Western Front", the main character (Paul? Its been a long time) often comments on how the stuff he learned in "boot" camp was of little use in the trenches. One thing in particular was the use of bayonets. In training, he was told to have a saw tooth edge on the blade, but later he learned that this made it difficult to pull the blade out of the body. He then comments that he preferred his shovel to he bayonet in hand to hand combat, because it was heavier and more effective. [mod.note: No, I meant WWII. - Bill ] max abramowitz madmax@gargoyle.uchicago.edu
ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Allan Bourdius) (06/27/91)
From: Allan Bourdius <ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu> The current tri-fold E-tools in use by the USA and USMC have one beveled edge, ostensibly for chopping through roots as you dig your fighting hole. However, one of my instructors at OCS made sure to point out to us that it would also do one hell of a job on somebody's skull. Unfortunately, the E-tool is only about 25-30 inches long open, so the enemy would be *very* close. If they're that close, you might as well pull out your handy K-bar. Allan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allan Bourdius [USMC Officer Candidate/Brother, Phi Kappa Theta Fraternity] ab3o+@andrew.cmu.edu or 1069 Morewood Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 CMU is not a fun place. Stay away at all costs. The opinions in this post/mail are only those of the author, nobody else.
eps@rieska.oulu.fi (Erkka Sutinen) (06/27/91)
From: eps@rieska.oulu.fi (Erkka Sutinen) In article <1991Jun25.024419.27437@cbnews.cb.att.com> Fredriksson_Urban_NOK@kista.relay.nokia.fi writes: > That statement surprised me, since at least here in Sweden the > shovel has a reputation of beeing a most effective weapon in > close quarters. > Now I'm curious: What about other countries? In Finland... It was mentionet theoretically and one guidebook had several pictures showing how to use Finnish military showel as a weapon which was quite fun... I mean that wasn't very instructive for real situation...... We didn't practice it ( Artillery ;-) ) but I can't speak for others...... -- ==============================# Eke what availeth Maner and Gentlinesse Erkka Pietari Sutinen # Without yow, benygne creature? INTERNET: eps@rieska.oulu.fi # Shal Cruelte be your governesse? EARN/BITNET: TKOP-EPS AT FINOU# -Chaucher
cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) (06/28/91)
From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) As quoted from <1991Jun25.024419.27437@cbnews.cb.att.com> by Fredriksson_Urban_NOK@kista.relay.nokia.fi: > > > From: Fredriksson_Urban_NOK@kista.relay.nokia.fi > > In a cutlery magazine, in an article on swords, the author > discusses the ability to use 'anything handy', and mentions an > occasion in the 1950's when someone successfully used a shovel > against multiple opponents. He then goes on to say: "Certainly > the use of a shovel as a formal weapon wasn't (and isn't) taught > during Advanced Infantry Training". I assume he is talking about > conditions in the USA. I once heard something like this. The story went that after ejecting some Chinese/North Koreans from a position, U.S. troops found a bunker with a long tunnel shaped entrance. There was a dead Chinese in the tunnel. When they pulled him out, he was sans cranium. They then proceeded to pull quite a few other dead, headless Chinese out of the bunker. At the bottom of the pile or rather at the back, was a GI with an entrenching tool. > That statement surprised me, since at least here in Sweden the > shovel has a reputation of beeing a most effective weapon in > close quarters. I've always had the impression that the use of a > shovel in hand-to-hand combat has been a part of such a training > program. Now I'm curious: What about other countries? > I believe that it IS in the U.S. Army combatives manual. It just isn't taught very often, at least it wasn't when I was on active duty. I have no doubt that the E-tool can be an effective weapon, based on the injuries that I've seen GIs inflict on themselves and each other using them to dig holes! :) > [mod.note: I can't say that it was taught, but I've read numerous > accounts of German troops fighting with their entrenching tools > during WWII. Sometimes, one edge of the blade was sharpened for this > purpose. - Bill ] > I believe that the latest film version of "All Quiet on the Western Front", starring Richard Thomas and Ernest Borgnine, shows E-tools being sharpened, and the squad leader or platoon sgt. showing the privates how to use them. Also Soviet troops, especially Spetsnaz are taught to use the E-tool as a weapon and even how to THROW it as a weapon. As I recall, Soviet troops killed a number of civilians in Tbilisi, Georgia using sharpened shovels. -- --------------------------------- "Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?" Christopher Morton {uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort cmort@ncoast.org
awtron@strawber.princeton.edu (Andrew Tron) (06/28/91)
From: awtron@strawber.princeton.edu (Andrew Tron) The first chapter of Viktor Suvorov's book "SPETZNAZ, The Soviet SAS" goes into great detail about the love affair between a SPETZNAZ soldier and his shovel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never trust a pilot with clean hands.| Andrew Tron at Princeton University No flight plan has ever survivied | awtron@phoenix.princeton.edu (Internet) contact with air traffic control. | uunet!phoenix!awtron (UUCP)
awtron@strawber.princeton.edu (Andrew Tron) (06/29/91)
From: awtron@strawber.princeton.edu (Andrew Tron) From awtron@strawber.princeton.edu (Andrew Tron) The first chapter of Viktor Suvorov's book "SPETZNAZ, The Soviet SAS" goes into great detail about the love affair between a SPETZNAZ soldier and his shovel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never trust a pilot with clean hands.| Andrew Tron at Princeton University No flight plan has ever survivied | awtron@phoenix.princeton.edu (Internet) contact with air traffic control. | uunet!phoenix!awtron (UUCP)
rlbell@sunee.waterloo.edu (Richard Bell) (06/29/91)
From: rlbell@sunee.waterloo.edu (Richard Bell) Victor Suvorov's book, "Spetnaz", starts off with a description of how the Spetnaz troops are taught to throw thier entrenching tools with great accuracy under a wide variety of unfavorable conditions. The reason is ' If you raise your gun, the sentry will try to shoot. If you throw your shovel, the sentry will try to duck.' (pardon my spelling)