gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (07/17/89)
This arrived in the Summer 1989 IEEE Standards Catalog, page 5.
"IEEE Standards Launches Hypertext Series
by Jay Iorio
IEEE Standards Department Manager of Information Systems
Very soon, the IEEE Standards Department will begin to release
selected standards in a new electronics form -- hypertext. For the
reader, a hypertext document allows for easy and intuitive
access by linking dispersed yet interrelated information
throughout a document or series of documents. Hypertext is
especially suited to highly structured techhical works like
standards. The implicit outline in such documents constitutes
one level of organization that can be mimiced electronically.
Once freed of its paper two-dimensionality, the electronic
version can be organized using any number of coexisting
schemes. At its most evolved, this browsing methodology begins
to mimic our thought processes.
A major criterion for selecting a standard to convert to a
hypertext document is how much extra value this method
would offer the reader. For example, a family of related
standards might be a good candidate for this treatment.
Our first product will be a hypertext version of IEEE Std
1003.1-1988, Standard Portable Operating System Interface for
Computer Environments -- the POSIX standard -- prepared using
HyperTRANS(TM)* Software from Texas Instruments. This book is
the first in a series. As new POSIX standards are published,
they will be added and linked to the first, and sold as a
collection. Eventually, after the entire series is published, you
will have the choice of purchasing either close to 5,000 pages of
paper documentation -- or simply a disk (maybe a set of floppies,
maybe a CD-ROM...) that contains the whole series in an
intricately interrelated fashion.
What does the customer need in order to use such
products? The POSIX pilot project will initially run only on MS-
DOS microcomputers (IBM PC compatibles), owing to the
popularity of these machines. If there is sufficient demand for
Macintosh or other (POSIX?) versions, we will be able to provide
them.
Crucial to the buyer is the fact that everything needed in
order to use this product will come *with* the product. In the
case of IEEE Std 1003.1-1988, the text and the necessary
software will come on a single 5.25" DS/SS 360-K diskette.
In order to develop hypertext products that meet the needs
of our users, we'd like to get your comments or suggestions.
The opinions of the IEEE standards community are invaluable
in making these decisions. Please call me directly at
(212) 705-7150.
* HyperTRANS is a trademark of Texas Instruments Incorporated."
What follows is my personal reaction. Flame on.
WHAT THE HELL DO THESE ASSHOLES THINK THEY'RE DOING?!!!?
They take a perfectly good standard, which was edited by Unix people
in machine readable form on Unix machines, refuse to release the machine
readable copy (reportedly to protect their revenue stream from the
overpriced paper copies) and then turn around and shove an MSDOS
pointy-clicky "hype-text" implementation at us!
We don't need any crud "hype-text" version of IEEE standards. What we
need is straight ASCII versions on media common in the POSIX
community. Like 9-track reel-to-reel tapes. Or uucp archives. They
could make a floppy version if demand warrants, but 5-inch floppy? Why
not 8-inch? Does anybody still BUILD machines with 5-inch 360K
floppies? If they really wanted to benefit the industry they'd release
it for copying by anyone -- then we could just get it in two minutes'
Telebit time from uunet, or from a local user group, or from the Austin
Code Works if we really wanted a floppy version.
The really galling part is that they only release this product for
MSDOS. "Here you go, the standard the Unix community has slaved away
at for years, in a nice machine readable form." But most of our
machines can't read it, and the only ones that can execute it are the
cruddy Intel DOS machines that have set the industry back for the last
eight years.
How much do you want to bet that "Hyper"TRANS will not let a full,
sequential copy of the document in straight ascii to be output? At
least we could buy this product, rent a DOS machine, point and click at
it with one finger while holding our noses, output a real copy of the
document, and move it over a serial port to a Unix system. But I bet
they have cut out that option, if TI even put it in their software in
the first place.
There are several systems on Unix that are evolving toward true hypertext.
It won't be possible to put a copy of this standard into them, though.
It's stuck on a proprietary MSDOS pointy clicky product. Thank you, IEEE.
--
John Gilmore {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@toad.com
"And if there's danger don't you try to overlook it,
Because you knew the job was dangerous when you took it"kdb@intercon.uu.net (Kurt Baumann) (07/17/89)
Snicker. I hope that this is not the ONLY form that they are going to release it in!? But I gotta laugh at it. Typical pure marketing geewiz strategy. Someone walked in and sold the marketing types that this was the way of the future. (By the way I think that hype(r)text is useful, just not for all things/or people) And they bought it hook line and sinker. But what they ended up with is just the lead poisoning from the sinker. Ah well, tis the zen of marketing at its best. Provide something that everyone wants in a format no one wants... -- Kurt Baumann InterCon Systems Corporation 46950 Community Plaza Suite 101-132 Sterling, VA 22170 Phone: 703.450.7117
mujica@ra.cs.ucla.edu (S. Mujica) (07/18/89)
on 16 Jul 89 20:53:22 GMT, gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) said: > Path: ucla-cs!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!pacbell!hoptoad!gnu > Lines: 100 > Xref: ucla-cs alt.hypertext:269 comp.org.ieee:152 > This arrived in the Summer 1989 IEEE Standards Catalog, page 5. > "IEEE Standards Launches Hypertext Series > by Jay Iorio > IEEE Standards Department Manager of Information Systems [deleted text...] > What does the customer need in order to use such > products? The POSIX pilot project will initially run only on MS- > DOS microcomputers (IBM PC compatibles), owing to the > popularity of these machines. If there is sufficient demand for > Macintosh or other (POSIX?) versions, we will be able to provide > them. Does anybody know of plans to publish something that will run in Unix, hopefully using the X Window System? Sergio Mujica mujica@cs.ucla.edu Computer Science Department, UCLA
mmackay+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael MacKay) (07/18/89)
What personally strikes me a little strange about the IEEE announcement is the choice of the HyperTRANS software from TI. It would seem that Guide would have been a more universal choice given that it runs on Sun3-X11/Vax-X11/Macs (all) /PC-MSDOS (all). Guide also has a reader package that enables easy distribution at cost-effective duplication rates for the publisher (from OWL). Of course, I have not seen HyperTRANS, so I can't argue the capabilities of the two systems (HyperTRANS vs. Guide), I can only presume that HyperTRANS must provide a more automated means of markup and building links, and a better environment for readers to build and save custom paths through the documentation. Obviously, if the standards were not authored (in terms of their text) with an eye towards hypertext architecture, it is not clear that this form of distribution will assist readers in understanding the standards themselves. For a good discussion of the problems of authorship, see Robert Glushko's paper "Transforming Text into Hypertext for a Compact Disc Encyclopedia" in the 1988 SIGCHI Transactions. --Mike Special Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with the Guide product professionally, I have only used it. This is not a product endorsement. ----------------------------------------------- Michael MacKay Information Technology Center Carnegie Mellon University ---------------------------------------------- ARPA: mmackay+@andrew.cmu.edu UUCP: !harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!mmackay Office: (412) 268-6744 Snail mail: Carnegie Mellon University Information Technology Center Attn. Michael MacKay, UCC203 4910 Forbes Avenue Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890 ---------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed herein are my own, not my employer's... ----------------------------------------------
hughes@ns.network.com (Jim Hughes x1676) (07/18/89)
I use a HYPERtext system on my Unix based Sun. It is point and click and I like it just fine. I think that HYPERtext should not be the issue, the issue is using a media for standard definition which is itself not a standard! Assuming that anything on PC DOS is by default a standard is absurd. Find a system that will run on a standard like X. Then there will be a larger acceptance of electronic text as a standard's documentation system. Jim Hughes@network.com PS the system I use is called KMS (Knowledge Management System). It was documented in July'88 Communications of the ACM. It will be available for X.
donn@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Donn Terry) (07/24/89)
I will print these discussions off and mail them to the appropriate
folks at IEEE. No, they don't have an email address (of any form) that
can be gotten to from this net. (Unless someone knows of a way to get
to Compmail+.)
I have already mailed Jay Iorio a copy of the first posting on this
("Standards for Standards") that appeared in comp.sw.eng (or some such;
I'm not sure of the group right now), and which now appears here. I also
handed his boss a copy personally. (No other postings on the topic
were present when I left for San Jose, and this is the first time I've
gotten to this group since.)
The system was demoed at the San Jose POSIX meeting. It seemed to work
well, but I'm no connoseur of hypertext systems to evaluate it. In
looking at it, it could have used a lot more links than it had, but
that's a standards-writer talking, and I don't know about it from
the point of view of an ordindary user. There was some talk of a
POSIX implementation in the future. If/when that happens I intend
to try it quickly.
Even if this doesn't turn out to be the right answer, someone had to
start somewhere, and I consider the effort commendable and valuable;
standards are difficult beasts to understand and something like hypertext
would likely make them a bit easier.
Donn Terry
HP, Ft. Collins
Chair IEEE 1003.1
(And no, I don't speak for either in any way.)