ted@brunix (Tony Davis) (07/19/89)
WARNING, if this turns into a discussion it should be moved to another news group; it may not be captivating to all of ieee and it is certainly of wider interest than ieee only. Can anybody suggest one? In article <214@sierra.stanford.edu> neff@sierra.UUCP (Randall B. Neff) writes: > [ Good discussion of the silliness of using non-standard MS-DOS hypertext ] > [ program for standards distribution. ] >Once the file format is defined, independent groups can write their own >hypertext readers, in a similar fashion to the different USENET news readers >available and the different X window managers being used and developed. > >The first level file format requires: > labels for the pages and page breaks. > define text buttons and targets (page, line, column). > editor for the format (GNU EMACS macros?). > >The second level file format requires: > color graphics (X window primatives?). > graphic buttons. > font names and exact formatting (LaTeX?). > graphic / page layout editor. > >The third level file format requires: > embedded `programming language'. > editor / debugger for language. > >Randall Neff@anna.stanford.edu Most of the above should NOT go into a hypertext standard. The most important guidelines I have heard so far: Hypertext is NOT a text editor. It's useless to put 'text editor like' capabilities in a hypertext format because this will quickly cause the standard to be ignored ("What, we can't use our outline fonts and flexible layout format since they aren't specified in your standard? Fine, we won't use your standard.") Forcing people to use the same or limited set of text editor(s) to use a hypertext standard will kill the standard rather than the editors. Hypertext is NOT a graphics interface. Same argument as above. These two guidelines eliminate all of levels two and three above and 5/6 of level one. One more guideline then some discussion of what a hypertext standard SHOULD do: A hypertext format may be a 'transportation only' format. One cannot and should not want to dictate a document format; it will be ignored (Guideline 1 from above). Even worse, resident hypertext documents may have no hypertext information in them at all. Hypertext link information can be kept in a document-external database with many advantages. The database can support multiple independent webs of links on the same document set. This and other enticing features are easily possible with the 'external link approach' without thinking of every feature beforehand. They are strong arguments for separation of hypertext links from the source documents, although the links must go with the documents for distribution. Separating the links from the document is the enabling power which will allow a variety of "hypertext readers". The minimum hypertext standard simply provides a format for specifiying the source and destination of links. This requires a 'document format independent' means of specifying the source and destination locations within documents. 'Format independent' may mean that it cannot be in terms of "page, line, column". What is a 'format independent' page break? Are columns characters or pixels? What is the line break character (or symbol, or directive)? Both source and destination must be specified to allow bidirectional links. Bidirectional links are convenient and necessary for many features; how does one delete all the links coming into a document when that document goes away? After links have been specified, types of links come under consideration. This might best be supported in the format by support for symbolic names of link types. With this addition, acceptability and usefulness of the standard already start fading to a fuzzy issue so I won't elaborate. My postion (though not original with me) is that we want hypertext to become as common as cut, copy, and paste are in Macintosh applications. Originally only a few applications had them, but they spread because of their incredible usefulness and a 'document format independent' way of doing them. Hypertext can go the same route if we avoid tying it up in monolithic, application-based standards. Witness Core graphics which was surplanted by GKS which was surplanted by Phigs which was surplanted by Phigs+ which was surplanted by HOOPS? In summary, hypertext is a feature, not an application. Tony Davis ted@cs.brown.edu
malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) (07/19/89)
In article <10766@brunix.UUCP> ted@bimini.UUCP (Tony Davis) writes: >..... >The minimum hypertext standard simply provides a format for specifiying the >source and destination of links. >..... I don't think hypertext is going to be successful with just smart links. I've just about finished writing a Hypercard introduction to a large database of auditory demonstrations/illusions. The hardest part of this endeavor has not creating the links but designing the screen layout and the user interface. Linear text is easy to present. It doesn't take much imagination to figure out how to present a string of characters on the screen. But as soon as you add multiple dimensions to the document it becomes much harder to organize. Trying to make it clear to the user (reader) should be the most important goal. For a good introduction to this problem read Danny Goodman's "The Complete Hypercard Handbook." He argues, among other things, that a graphics designer should be part of every hypertext design effort. The user interface is the hard part! And as far as IEEE is concered....I applaud their efforts! I don't know anything about the hypertext system they chose but it's time to stop using just linear text. I want to write papers with live equations where the user can plug their parameters into my equations and see the graphs change. I want to be able to put an animated figure into my paper and when the user asks for it the figure starts moving. I'm doing work on pitch perception. I want my audio illustrations to be part of the paper and not on a seperate cassette tape that can get lost and is not convenient. All of this will help my readers understand the work I am doing. Malcolm Slaney ATG Speech and Hearing Project
steve@arc.UUCP (Steve Savitzky) (07/20/89)
In article <10766@brunix.UUCP> ted@bimini.UUCP (Tony Davis) writes: >WARNING, if this turns into a discussion it should be moved to another >news group; it may not be captivating to all of ieee and it is certainly >of wider interest than ieee only. Can anybody suggest one? comp.text? This ties in with the discussion of SGML taking place in that group. See followup line above. There was also some discussion of this in comp.software-eng, where I posted a followup to Randall Neff's article. >In article <214@sierra.stanford.edu> neff@sierra.UUCP (Randall B. Neff) writes: >> [ Good discussion of the silliness of using non-standard MS-DOS hypertext ] >> [ program for standards distribution. ] >>Once the file format is defined, independent groups can write their own >>hypertext readers, in a similar fashion to the different USENET news readers >>available and the different X window managers being used and developed. >> >>The first level file format requires: >> labels for the pages and page breaks. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ document structural components >> define text buttons and targets (page, line, column). ^^^^^^^^^^^^ links and active objects >> editor for the format (GNU EMACS macros?). ^^^^^^^ SAMPLE front end >> >>The second level file format requires: [graphics, fonts, etc. -- list omitted] >> >>The third level file format requires: [programming language with editor & debugger] >> >>Randall Neff@anna.stanford.edu > >Most of the above should NOT go into a hypertext standard. The most >important guidelines I have heard so far: > > Hypertext is NOT a text editor. [argument omitted] > Hypertext is NOT a graphics interface. > Same argument as above. > >These two guidelines eliminate all of levels two and three above and >5/6 of level one. One more guideline then some discussion of what >a hypertext standard SHOULD do: > > A hypertext format may be a 'transportation only' format. [more stuff omitted, arguing that links should be in a separate file from the document] I think that separating linkage from document information should be an option, not a requirement. I agree completely with Tony that hypertext is not an editor or an interface, but a hypertext standard MUST be capable of REPRESENTING any combination of text, graphics, sound, and other information. It *isn't* just links. Links are the connections between objects; you have to be able to specify the objects, too! >The minimum hypertext standard simply provides a format for specifiying the >source and destination of links. This requires a 'document format independent' >means of specifying the source and destination locations within documents. >'Format independent' may mean that it cannot be in terms of "page, line, >column"... ^^^^^^^^ definitely means Hypertext should specify a document's STRUCTURE, rather than its format. In other words, a Hypertext is a collection of OBJECTS. SUMMARY I would like to see a hypertext standard that is: o Non-proprietary o Object-oriented. It should be possible for ANY object to have ANY collection of attributes. This makes it easy to represent any document structure, including graphics, active buttons, etc. o Capable of "linking in" objects that are contained in arbitrary external files -- this handles Tony's desire for separable link files. o Includes a way of specifying executable objects (programs) as abstract syntax trees (i.e. collections of objects). The ability to include programs is important: o It allows hypertexts that contain active objects such as buttons to be described and transported. o It allows data in arbitrarily-structured external files to be included in a hypertext by including a program that can parse the file. Such structured external files include: SGML documents, tar archives, and of course news and mail archives. o Includes a portable sample implementation, including a library of routines for manipulating hypertexts, and a (possibly very crude) sample front end. I'm thinking of the X windowing system as a good example of this. The easier a standard is to implement, the more popular it will be. What I want may be closer to an object-oriented database/file system/ programming environment than to a simple "file format". >Tony Davis >ted@cs.brown.edu -- Steve Savitzky | steve@arc.uucp | apple.com!arc!steve ADVANsoft Research Corp. | (408) 727-3357(w) / 294-6492(h) 4301 Great America Parkway | #include<disclaimer.h> Santa Clara, CA 95054 | May the Source be with you!
blackje@sunspot.crd.ge.com (Emmett Black) (07/22/89)
how about "alt.hypertext" ... perhaps we should move this discussion there, and make it something other than a hypercard forum. (bump those folks to comp.sys.mac.hypercard :-) how about it? --Emmett J.E.Black; GE Research/K1-3C26; Schenectady, NY 12345 blackje@crd.ge.com
camp@m2.csc.ti.com (Clyde Camp) (07/26/89)
Neither the Hypertrans(TM) people nor the IEEE people can at this time communicate directly over the net and I have received their permission to transmit their responses to the recent traffic concerning the POSIX Hypertext project, of which they have been sent hardcopies. The following is a three part response, first from me personally, second from the Hypertrans people and third from the IEEE Standards Office. Part #1 (Clyde Camp) ==================== Before I proceed, let me introduce myself. My name is Clyde Camp. I work for Texas Instruments in the Computer Science Center but have been spending about half my time for the last 8 years or so working with the IEEE and Computer Society Standards organizations. I currently hold several voluntary positions within the IEEE including the chair of the Microprocessor Standards Committee which sponsors around 30 bus and language standards. I am in no way associated with the people doing the TI Hypertrans(TM) product and in fact initially learned about it through the IEEE during a discussion with Jay Iorio and Judy Gorman on an entirely different matter. Since then, I have been supporting it and helping to coordinate things in a minor way (including sending this response.) From a standards standpoint, I personally think that it is an excellent idea. I was somewhat aghast at seeing the negative response to an experiment that came about due to a large number of requests to the IEEE Standards Office to deliver standards in a media other than hardcopy. I assure you that the standards office is extremely interested in any comments any of you may have and that they have no wish to spend a lot of money developing a delivery mechanism that no one wants to use. Their choice of MS-DOS as the first delivery vehicle for the POSIX test was driven by several factors, not the least of which was that there are a huge number of DOS machines using 5.25-in floppies out in the workplace - an unpalatable fact for UNIXphiles and MACphiles, but true none-the-less. In any case, you can get mail to either Jay or Judy in either of the following ways: 1) I'll be glad to forward it to them directly since I have access to both the net and the e-mail system they use. 2) You can send U.S. Mail to either Jay Iorio (who is coordinating the POSIX experiment) or Judy Gorman (who is in charge of all publications) at: IEEE Standards Office 445 Hoes Lane, P.O.Box 1331 Piscataway, NJ 08855-1331 They are more receptive (as I am) to rationally phrased arguments, either pro or con, than to mere flames. To clear up a few possible misconceptions: - There is absolutely no intention by the IEEE to convert completely to Hypertext. Printed versions will always remain available - after all, quite a few people do not have access to a computer of any type; sad but true :-). - The current POSIX experiment is just that - an experiment. The recent demonstration to the POSIX working group in San Jose generated more than suffficient positive response to continue. This does NOT mean that MS-DOS is the only delivery vehicle - see the HYPERTRANS Response in Part #2. There will be other experiments with other standards and other delivery mechanisms. - Exactly which delivery vehicles ARE used by the IEEE will be determined primarily by demand, although funding and copyright issues must also be considered. Funding comes from two sources - from budget requests to the IEEE (and therefore from IEEE member dues) and from profit from sales of standards. The current IEEE policy is that the Standards Office must be essentially self sustaining. Profits, as such, are plowed back into increased user services. - One of the goals of the IEEE Standards Office is to provide increased functionality, not just machine readable copy. This is especially important for large, complex standards which cover multiple documents. To answer a few specific questions from the net that I couldn't just let pass by: >>From: neff@sierra.Stanford.EDU (Randall B. Neff) >>Actually, the current implementation plan of issuing IEEE standards in >>machine readable form could be considered, in one sense, as an admission >>of failure (or just lack of success) of the IEEE standards group. >> ... >> An alternative question might be: why aren't IEEE standards more >> popular? They are. It is a multi-million dollar business and it wouldn't be if the product wasn't needed. That doesn't meen that *everyone* needs them, however IEEE standards are recognized internationally as representing a broad consensus view and as such, they are widely used in industry, in government procurement specifications and as starting point documents for international standards efforts. The delivery of a machine readable form is in response to many requests; but even given that a machine readable form was available for any machine you wanted to run on, I would bet that printed version sales would exceed machine readable version sales for a LONG time. Incidently, there is an effort underway (P996 - Chaired by Scott Hopkinson at 714/662-5600) to standardize the PC-bus architecture. >>[Tony Davis ted@cs.brown.edu] >>[ long discussion on pros and cons of Hypertext in general] >>My postion (though not original with me) >>is that we want hypertext to become as common as cut, copy, and paste >>are in Macintosh applications. Originally only a few applications had >>them, but they spread because of their incredible usefulness and a >>'document format independent' way of doing them. Hypertext can go the >>same route if we avoid tying it up in monolithic, application-based >>standards. Witness Core graphics which was surplanted by GKS which was >>surplanted by Phigs which was surplanted by Phigs+ which was surplanted >>by HOOPS? In summary, hypertext is a feature, not an application. >> >>[ Steve Savitzky | steve@arc.uucp | apple.com!arc!steve ] >>I agree completely with Tony that hypertext is not an editor or an >>interface, but a hypertext standard MUST be capable of REPRESENTING >>any combination of text, graphics, sound, and other information. It >>*isn't* just links. Links are the connections between objects; you >>have to be able to specify the objects, too! >> >>Hypertext should specify a document's STRUCTURE, rather than its >>format. In other words, a Hypertext is a collection of OBJECTS. I definitely agree with Tony's last sentence, but Steve is also right. One way to prevent future misuse is to proactively write an appropriate standard which achieves your (and hopefully the industry's) goals of a document format independent standard and solve the problem before it becomes a problem. I don't personally know enough about hyperxxxx to technically judge whether or not this is feasible. But I do know that while the initial gut reaction of many people is "we don't need a standard", the long term usefulness of standards overwhelms the problems. As an example, there were MANY MANY objections and bitter discussions and counter proposals over the IEEE Floating Point Standard and yet it is perhaps one of the most widely used. If anyone is interested in a standard in this area, I will be happy to discuss what is involved offline. The MSC would be glad to sponsor such an effort, but it needs a `champion'. >>Is there anyone from IEEE listening, or are we all just flaming in the >>wind? >>I just handed a paper copy of the entire discussion to Ken Anderson (the >>president of the IEEE computer society). He said that he will forward it >>to the right people. The Message-ID's of articles I have collected are >>attached to the end of this note. If I have missed any, please send them >>to Ken at >> kra@demon.siemens.com Actually, this is kind of interesting. A lot of people automatically assume that the IEEE and Computer Society are essentially the same and that addressing one is the same as addressing the other. Remember that while the Computer Society is big, it is only a fraction of the IEEE's total business which includes the Power Engineering Society, the Nuclear Engineering Society and many others. Likewise, the Standards Office is only a piece of the action - There's also publications (e.g. transactions, Spectrum), member services, conferences, etc. It's like any large company in that finding the right people to talk to is sometimes a problem. But in answer to your question, the right people in the IEEE Standards Office (including the director, Andrew Salem) are now aware of this discussion, as is the TI Hypertrans development program. >>How about EtherNet, RS232C, RS422, RS423 ? CSMA CD, CSMA CA ? >>IEEE 488? IEEE floating point numbers? >>Nubus? VMEbus? >>Aren't some of these IEEE standards? The local area network standards are IEEE 802.x sponsored by the Computer Society's Technical Committee on Computer Communications and all fall under the 44 or so 802.x committees (Chair - Maris Graube.) RSS232C, RSS422, RSS423 are EIA standards. NuBus (IEEE 1196), VME (IEEE 1014), Multibus-I/II (IEEE 796/1296), Futurebus (IEEE 896), Floating Point (IEEE 754), S100 Bus (IEEE 696), STD Bus (IEEE 961) and others are IEEE standards sponsored by the Computer Society's Microprocessor Standards Subcommittee (which I chair.) IEEE 488 is sponsored by the IEEE Instrument and Measurement Society. ============================================================================= PART #2 (TEXAS INSTRUMENTS HYPERTRANS DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM) CLYDE, I APPRECIATE THE INTEREST AND ATTEMPTS TO HELP WITH THE FLACK GOING ON ABOUT HYPERTRANS(TM). IF ANYTHING IS SAID OF THE NETWORK IT SHOULD INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION: HYPERTRANS(TM) IS NOT A STANDARD BUT A METHOD OF INFORMATION DELIVERY. IEEE IS ENGAGED IN A PILOT STUDY. INTEREST WILL DICTATE WHERE IT GOES. BASED ON INPUT FROM THE IEEE, MOST OPINIONS ARE VERY FAVORABLE. THE HYPERTRANS (TM) PRODUCED DATA BASE INCLUDES BOTH AN ASCII FILE FOR DOCUMENT TEXT AND A PROPRIETARY DATA STRUCTURE USED FOR NAVIGATION. THE NAVIGATION SOFTWARE IS CALLED "DISCOVER:"(TM) WE [also] HAVE A HYPERCARD STACK THAT CAN READ THE SAME DATA STRUCTURES. WE HAVE ANOTHER INTERFACE CALLED "HYPERMEDIA" THAT IS CONSTRUCTED WITH EMACS AND WILL BE AVAILABLE SOON FOR VMS AND UNIX BASED SYSTEMS. THE HYPERTEXT ATTRIBUTES OF "DISCOVER:"(TM) AND ITS DATA BASE ALLOW FOR FAST AND EASY BROWSING OF STRUCTURE AND CONTENTS, ADAPTIVE INTERCONNECTIVITY BETWEEN RELATED DOCUMENTS (MORE BOOKS CAN BE ADDED TO THE DATA BASE AND AUTOMATICALLY LINKED TO RESIDENT BOOKS), STORAGE OF BOOKMARKS, TRAILS, AND HISTORY, FULL EXPANDED INDEX OF FUNCTIONS AND FIELDS, AND SEARCH CAPABILITIES WITH CONTEXT MENU. THE POSIX MATERIAL IS THE COPYRIGHT OF THE IEEE, AND TI IS MAKING NO CLAIM TO THIS MATERIAL. THE IEEE WILL BE MARKETING AND SELLING THE SOFTWARE. ========================================================================= PART #3 (IEEE STANDARDS OFFICE) To: C.CAMP (CMP0011) To: STANDARDS (IEE237) From: STANDARDS (IEE237) Delivered: Wed 26-July-89 9:18 EDT Sys 134 (29) Subject: POSIX Mail Id: IPM-134-890726-083801243 7/26/89 ------------ Dear Clyde, Thanks for the communications. The Department's comments follow: ------------ The IEEE Standards Department is always interested in hearing what potential users of standards need, and your comments on the POSIX project may well prove helpful to us in our preparation of this and other documents. We would like to clear up a few points: One reason the IEEE Standards Department opted for Texas Instruments' HyperTrans (tm) approach for this pilot project is the portability of the database it generates. From the time of our department's earliest discussions of hypertext and electronic puiblishing in general, we have assumed that we would make documents available for a variety of machines and operating systems, depending on customer demand. TI assured us they could accommodate this need. Another attraction of HyperTrans (tm) for us is its automation of much of the linking process, without which any such project would be prohibitively labor-intensive for us. Our experience in the Standards Department is that by far most of the people who submit or to whom we provide media work on micros, and most use or can use 5.25-in 360K diskettes. In any event, we'll support all common media, again depending on who needs what. The degree to which the user will be able to access the ASCII text of the document is one issue being decided during the current beta testing. --IEEE Standards