dlarsen@netxcom.UUCP (Dave Larsen) (05/17/89)
I have read a lot of articles concerning Microsoft OnLine. They all complain about the price and the fact that it is a prerequisite purchase to get prerelease development software. I have seen the same things and I also don't like it. My company used to subscribe to Microsoft Dial which was the predecessor to OnLine. We had the service for one year. This was supposed to be the vehicle to get support from Microsoft. My company is doing Windows development and during our learning curve we thought this would be an aid in answering the questions we had during our learning process. I found that Microsoft was very sluggish in responding to our requests and was usually very incomplete in their answers. We were able to get more support from other users subscribed to Dial either by getting a response directly or by reading of someone elses comments. I can get this same support from this newsgroup! I could not justify the expense of this service for another year. I get literature and phone calls from Microsoft constantly now asking me to subscribe to OnLine. The cost for this service is about $480 a year. I cannot justify spending that amount of money for a service that other companies provide at no cost! Wouldn't it be to Microsoft's advantage to provide this service at no cost? It is not a great expense to maintain a bulletin board. Developers are needed to write software so that the products Microsoft develops are useful to the market when they are released. Developers already are paying for the SDK's necessary to write software to support Microsoft products. Why should these developers also pay when they need support from Microsoft so that they will be able to provide support for Microsoft?! These are my own opions and do not necessarily reflect coorporate opion. I am however currently evaluating X-Windows and we as a coorporation are considering switching to this environment for future windows applications. I would like to read more views of others concerning OnLine, especially those of people from Microsoft. I have found Microsoft employee's views enlightening. Dave Larsen
davevi@microsoft.UUCP (Dave Vineberg) (05/18/89)
To: uunet!seismo!sundc!netxcom!dlarsen Subject: Re: Microsoft OnLine Newsgroups: comp.windows.ms In-Reply-To: <1247@netxcom.UUCP> Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Cc: Bcc: I am a support manager for Windows. I am interested in the comments here. We have done alot of work to improve the quality of the service that we provide. We have made major investments in software and hardware to insure that the quality of support that we provide is in line with the quality of our other products. There is a major difference between the type of support that you purchase via Online and the type of support that you get here or on the other forums. That difference is accountability. Now on Online you are asked to comment on the quality of the service that you recieve. If you respond that the service did not meet your standards then a support manager will be giving you a call to find out what happened. As a line manager I must provide reports on the outcome of these calls to my management. The visibility of your satisfaction has been really increased. Yes with Dial there were both system and attitude problems. On a number of occasions responses were delayed because of software failures. Since we knew that support would be an essential component of the success of the OS/2 and Windows SDK we made these major investments and we really have improved. To clarify one point I manage support for Windows (the retail product) and Excel rather than the SDK. However I will forward mail concerning support issues to the appropriate manager. My participation in this forum is my own initiative and not an official visit. I do want you all to know that we really do care about the quality of the support that we provide and we are doing things to improve it. Sure it would be nice to give support away for free and in fact we provide an extraordinary amount of free support. We have 50 technicians in the Windows and Excel support teams alone. However at a certian point you have to draw the line. All together we have over 230 people working in our product support services departments. If we were to provide free support on all of the issues that came up we would really start affecting our companies bottom line. The worst support is no support and if there was no Microsoft we all would be in a pretty bad spot. At what point do you draw the line? We made the decision that we would not provide coding assistance other than syntax explanations for free. In other words if we can explain the situation over the telephone we will and all it costs you is the price of a telephone call. In fact we will answer letters concerning coding issues however out paying customers come first when we assign priorities. From the outside it is easy to imagine that we have unlimited resources here however we don't. Developing the complex systems that we are working on now is not cheap and investment in future products always looks better to investors than increasing the cost of goods sold by adding additional expenses to our current products. The technicians here work hard to provide fast response to the complex issues that our customers bring us. We do care how successful you are and we are working to insure that success. From the top on down we have a reall commitment to providing the best support in the world...While at the same time not breaking the bank.. I know that there are those of you out there ready to flame but please try and be realistic in your requests. Rather than going on longer than I already have I'll follow up later. Thanks for bearing with this overly long message but I felt that I just had to respond. Remember these are just my opinions and not official Microsoft statements. Thanks David Vineberg
billc@mirror.UUCP (Bill Callahan) (05/19/89)
In article <5743@microsoft.UUCP> davevi@microsoft.UUCP (Dave Vineberg) writes: > >I am a support manager for Windows. I am interested in the comments here. >We have done alot of work to improve the quality of the service that we >provide. We have made major investments in software and hardware to insure >that the quality of support that we provide is in line with the quality >of our other products. > [...] David: I'm very glad to hear from you! I had heard so little from Microsoft people that it got me wondering why. It seems to me that usenet is an excellent forum for solving software problems. Very often when someone has a problem and it's solved on the net, others can read about it and avoid the problem. It's sort of like preventive medicine. I think that in the long run, getting things solved here would actually reduce calls to vendors, because people get acquainted with the most common pitfalls before they actually hit them. I bet that when one of your support people gets a call, very often they say themselves, "Ah yes, the old blah-blah problem." I think that comp.windows.ms should be viewed as a real boon to Microsoft. Think about it: anybody with access to usenet who's developing a Windows application is going to read it. They can also write to it. You guys are hooked up to it, and from your point of view, distribution is virtually free. It would cost a lot of money to set up a medium like this yourself, and then you'd have to market it. I don't think that this can or should replace the other support services you offer, but I think it can compliment them immensely. Even if you just had one employee monitoring the newsgroup and answering questions (not all the questions, just the ones that s/he has time for in whatever time the person has set aside for this) it would be a big plus to the developers who read this, and I'd say very good for PR. How much different is it really from getting a letter or a phone call? And when you consider that you've solved the problem for the other readers, too, I'd say you're ahead. Just my thoughts. I'm a Windows developer. We have OnLine. We use it, and we're going to continue to use it, but I also read this newsgroup, and find it valuable in a different way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Callahan billc@mirror.TMC.COM {mit-eddie, pyramid, wjh12, xait, datacube}!mirror!billc Mirror Systems 2067 Massachusetts Ave. 617\661-0777 x149 Cambridge, MA 02140
jxh@cup.portal.com (Jim - Hickstein) (05/23/89)
In article (portal is a pain) billc@mirror.TMC.COM writes: > I think that comp.windows.ms should be viewed as a real boon to Microsoft. > Think about it: anybody with access to usenet who's developing a Windows > application is going to read it. They can also write to it. You guys are > hooked up to it, and from your point of view, distribution is virtually > free. It would cost a lot of money to set up a medium like this yourself, > and then you'd have to market it. GE set up a medium like this (arguably) and sells it to organizations like Microsoft. I think that the ante for ONLINE puts it out of the reach of most of the people who need it. I just barely managed to get my employer to buy it, and then only bundled as part of the OS/2 SDK, which $3K squeaked on the way out the door. As for my personal development system, it's out of the question. > I don't think that this can or should replace the other support services you > offer, but I think it can compliment [sic] them immensely. Even if you just had > one employee monitoring the newsgroup and answering questions (not all the > questions, just the ones that s/he has time for in whatever time the person > has set aside for this) it would be a big plus to the developers who read > this, and I'd say very good for PR. How much different is it really from > getting a letter or a phone call? And when you consider that you've solved > the problem for the other readers, too, I'd say you're ahead. Hear, hear! I use ONLINE in the mode described: read about others' problems first, then plead for more help, but the range of other problems is quite limited; I've apparently been the first to run into everything that wasn't just RTFM. It seems that if the net were used more widely by Microsoft for this sort of thing that many more such questions would be answered by the writing on the wall and would take such a load off the support staff that it could easily justify at least one full-time USENET contact within their organization, along the lines of Gerry Wheeler at MKS, from which company they could learn much. In fact, different user names could be set up to route requests to the appropriate group once this is established by the front-line contact person or just common sense. > Just my thoughts. I'm a Windows developer. We have OnLine. We use it, and > we're going to continue to use it, but I also read this newsgroup, and find > it valuable in a different way. *flame on I use it only when provoked. I find it painful, but sometimes worth the effort. Just one actual flame: any MS-DOS application that REQUIRES 596KB of RAM to operate is in a category I call arrogant. It has its own vanilla boot disk in order to clear the decks for its ravings, but even this is painful. In fairness, the information obtained with this method has been accurate and complete if not quite timely, but seldom gives a feeling of satisfaction. The usual transaction goes: (me) Hey! This is broken! (them) Yes, we know. Here is an ugly workaround that you already thought of until you can afford to buy the next release (SPEND MONEY), when it becomes available later this decade. *flame off Actually, the people behind ONLINE are knowledgable and helpful, even if they seldom have the answer I want to hear. It's the delivery of this service that needs improvement, and USENET should definitely be explored. I want to thank the few individuals at Microsoft who, apparently on their own time and expense, undertake to follow this group and respond to our questions. I just hope we can convince your bosses that you're on the right track. Keep up the good work. -Jim Hickstein OS/2 PMSDK Masochists Group :-) VSAT Systems, Inc. San Jose, CA jxh@cup.portal.com ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!jxh --- IBM: Immediately Buy Memory. "Even as computers get faster and faster, all it takes is more software to slow them down. MS: More Software." -me
dave@motto.UUCP (dave brown) (05/23/89)
Our company is doing development work involving OS/2 Presentation Manager. We have had nothing but good experience with the support offered through Microsoft Online. We usually get the answer to our questions within two or three days. The responses are always helpful and courteous. In a couple of cases we got far more detailed responses that we expected, including phone calls to discuss problems, and sample code illustrating solutions. We have already saved several times the cost of the subscription, just because we could count on getting the answer promptly, rather than wasting time going down blind alleys trying to figure things out ourselves. Of course, your mileage may vary. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | David C. Brown | uunet!mnetor!motto!dave | | Motorola Canada, Ltd. | 416-499-1441 ext 3708 | | Communications Division | Disclaimer: Motorola is a very big company | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
rogerson@PEDEV.Columbia.NCR.COM (Dale Rogerson) (05/24/89)
After a comment that I had made concerning the Pre-release program for
Windows 3.0 and my feelings concerning Microsoft Online I received a
message from Robert B. Hess of Microsoft Corp. Mr. Hess wanted my
input into what I felt was wrong with Online and MS support in general.
Following is part of the reply I sent to Mr. Hess. Again, I would
like to thank Mr. Hess and the other Microsoft employees who read this
newsgroup. Maybe in the future Microsoft will reward you for taking the
time to answer our questions.
[ I had added a little clarification to my original letter in brackets
like this. -DER ]
=======================================================================\
Yes, I know that some Microsoft employees read comp.windows.ms, but as
you said, on THEIR own time. No, one is *officially* responsible for
answering the questions on the net. (I would like to thank you for helping
us out on your own time!) With the amount of traffic and number of
developers on this net, Microsoft needs to have an official presense here.
Most Windows developers do not have a favorable attitude to Microsoft
Support. They feel like this:
Developer: "I paid $1000 for tools to develope applications for an
environment which the market has not yet accepted. I am
sticking my neck out and spending the time to learn how
to program for an environment which may not catch on. I
need some help."
Microsoft: "Sure we can help you if you pay us lots of money.
If you don't have the money too bad. We domanate the PC
operating system market and sooner or later someone will
write programs for our environments."
I know that this is extreme, but this is the way many developers feel. I
really like Windows; it has a lot of promise. (In fact, I am really amazed
that it was possible to get a multitasking, virtual memory sytem running on
a 8086.) Everytime a developer complains about Windows support I get kind
of defensive as if it was my own product.
I have not subscribed to Online (and neither has the local NCR Windows group)
because it is just plain too expensive. $495 for only 1 year and 12 hours of
connect time. This is not much time at all and a lot of money for us
"home programmers." Maybe if it was FREE access for ALL developers to the
question database, and then a charge for SPECIFIC questions that must be
answered QUICKLY, I would like it better. [ In other words, let everyone read
the answer, but maybe charge those people who need the answer now, today, right
this second. - DER ] I know support costs alot of
money, but with better support come better applications which sale more
versions of Windows and once you have one Windows program you want more so
chalk up more sales of Excel and Word for Windows (wherever that is).
If the support was better, it would pay for itself.
The second reason I have not subscribed to Online is because I have not seen onegood review of its services. Most developers say the information is vague and
not very helpful. Some say that the price is more than fair for the service,
IF they got useful answer which they did not. I know that answering other
peoples programming problems is hard, especially with an environment like
Windows, but I have not heard any complains about Apple's fantastic support
program except for the *new* yearly charge. However, Apple is in a position
where it can charge for the support.
Even the developers support on GEnie is rather weak. Most questions are
still answered by other developers and not by anyone at Microsoft. The
official Microsoft line is "I don't know.", "I have not worked with DDE." and
"It will be fixed in a later version." Also the information availiable in
the knowledgebase is also rather pathetic not to mention expensive at $5 an
hour over GEnie time. A co-worker just told me he was trying to find
information in the knowledge base and he found a bunch of UNANSWERED questions!
Also he asked a question and was told by an MS person, you can not do that. This
message was followed by someone else who told him how to do it. This person was
not an MS representative.
The GEnie support for the USER seems to be alot
better. I find it nice to be able to take to the people who handle upgrades.
It also is easier to send in mistakes that I find in the documentation.
[ On normal user programs, such as Word, Microsoft seems to do a much better
job. Of course supporting an application is easier than supporting
programmers. Part of the problem is that you are treating programmers as
normal users. Give us some credit for intelligence. WE CAN INSTALL PATCHES.
We like patches better than "Wait for the next version." - DER]
What I would like to see in Windows Development Support:
1) A bug list. We all know there are bugs. Tell us what they are. Upload
a new list to GEnie and Usenet at least once a month. Cost to your
company: ~$0.01. This would solve alot of problems people have.
[ Maybe even a transcribe of recently solved Online problems people have
had. - DER ]
2) Get someone to help answer the questions on Usenet. A monthly newletter
telling what Microsoft is up to in the Windows area would be nice.
Also a directory of availiable Windows programs.
The main idea here is that the official presense is what is important.
Like parents at a little league ballgame do not actually help, but they
make it easier to hit the ball.
[ Make yourself seem. Don't be the big bad company, become one of us.]
3) Reduce the price of the Microsoft Systems Journal. It is rather expensive.
4) We needs some more books. Books are a fantastic and cheap way to support
development. Maybe a whole library of books: graphics, DDE, DLL,
*COMMUNICATIONS*, and other topics which pick up where Petzold's book
ends. You could probably convince some of us Windows programmers to help
you here.
5) More sample programs. Pass out more public domain programs which show
how to do some of the neat things, like dividing a window into parts like
in Excel. This would not require too much programmer overhead. Get some
CO-OPs to do it. Give away the source code of Petzold's book. (A friend
a mine called up to get the disk and they wanted him to supply them with
proof that he had bought the SDK. Unbelievable!!!)
[ Give us the source!]
6) Do not wait for a new version of Windows to update the development tools.
Give us new versions as you write them. In fact give us the SOURCE.
(A free way to do #5 and any piece of source makes programers like you more.)
Maybe even give a free program to someone who really improves a utility.
Give us the tools your Excel developers use the current versions of some of
them are very buggy (Dialog Editor).
7) Make a separate Windows user group on GEnie. Get as many Windows developers
to support their products there each in their own section. Whitewater,
ZSoft, Micrographics, Xian, and other could all be found in one location.
It is still difficult to find out who sells Windows products. This would
make it easy. (If you want to hear why this is a GREAT idea, I will
write you another letter.)
8) Reduce the cost of programming for Windows. Maybe a Windows BASIC
(TuringPlus Maybe). Something for the Home/Turbo programmer to play with
while all those Macs are running Hypercard (WE NEED NEWWAVE!)
I just finished typing a long letter to a student who wants to start
programming for Windows. He is a student and can not afford all of these
tools. Shareware/Freeware is an important market! These programmers are
not going to program for Windows when they can get Turbo C for $100. I
know, I wanted to program for Windows when it first came out, but as a
student I could not justify the expense. I had to wait 3 years before
I could pay for it. Three years is a long time to wait.
9) Offer patches NOW TODAY AT THIS TIME for compilers and programer tools.
Working around bugs is difficult and wasted time.
[ Again, treat programmers as adults who know what they are doing. ]
10) Improve the installation of Windows and support of multiple configurations.
It is hard enough to test a Windows application as it is.
Just doing some of these suggestions would improve developer support an
incredible amount. Most of these suggestions would not cost much. In fact
most of them are based on the idea that the developer can support himself with
a little help and A LOT of INFORMATION.
I am sorry that this ran a little long, but I really feel that Microsoft's
support to Windows developers has been poor in the past. It is time that
this support was improved. I like Windows and would like to see it succeed.
I feel that it needs alot of work, but it is headed in the right direction
(NewWave please). Windows may succeed without better support from MS, but
it would probably have already succeeded with this support.
Again, thanks for reading comp.windows.ms. Maybe in the near future we can
get you paid for reading it.
I do Windows by choice. Support my choice.
-----Dale
Rogerson-----daveg@hpcvlx.HP.COM (Dave Guggisberg) (05/24/89)
I guess as long as I have a chance to get Microsoft's attention regarding ONLINE, I should avail myself and hopefully help improve things for everyone. My experience goes back to DIAL through ONLINE today. The quality of the support seems to be tied to where Microsoft is currently puting its strategic interests. I have gotten good support on applications and PM programming questions and broken complier issues from Microsoft. To illustrate the other areas I have had trouble with, let me relate the stories. We have an HP-IB (GPIB) command library that hooks into a number of languages GWBASIC being one of them. We needed some clarification on the internals of GWBASIC. My inquiry started off "We have the GWBASIC OEM Adapation kit but we cannot find ...." Their response was "In order to get that question answered you must buy the GWBASIC OEM Adaptation kit." We never did get our question answered. We also have the OS/2 $3000 SDK as well as the $495 OS/2 Device Driver SDK. The last version (at least that I got in January) 1.05 had some references to some materials that were to be released with the final version. I sent a request about the posibility of getting some early copies and a request for some more specific information about the references to clarify where the information was vague. The response was "IBM's recently released OS/2 programmers kit has some excellent information on writing OS/2 device drivers if you are interested in evaluating whether you are interested in writing a device driver." Figure that one. I couldn't. I have sent two follow-ups. The last one over a month ago. I have never heard anything back. By the way, I have gotten only one of those "How do you like our service" inquiries. And that was after one that they knew they had answered successfully. Hopefully, this will help you understand why some people say they get great service and other say they get the pits. It depends on the nature of the question and whether it is in a stratigic interes area. Dave Guggisberg Hewlett-Packard 503-750-3402 daveg@cv.hp.com
jal@ee.rochester.edu (John Lefor) (02/28/90)
I have a subscription to OnLine. Though it is expensive (for me) it is well worth the money for a serious developer dependent on Microsoft tools. If you are a serious Windows developer I would think it would be invaluable. First you get answers to your technical questions. The answers aren't always great but you get answers. Second there is a lot of software available only to OnLine subscribers, or available faster with OnLine (log on, down load and you are done ... not wait for the mail). Third you can get serious problems resloved most quickly with OnLine. I found a bug in a recent HIMEM.SYS. With OnLine I was able to gey the latest source and find the problem. Microsoft fixed the problem and fixed the distribution. Last to take advantage of some programs (like being a beta tester for some future prooducts) you must have OnLine. All in all it is expensive but worthwhile if you want a professional relationship with Microsoft. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I program ... therefore I am. John Lefor University of Rochester Dept of E. Engineering 716-275-8265 jal@ee.rochester.edu uunet!ur-valhalla!jal