frank@odetics.com (Frank Merrow) (10/09/90)
Hi Everyone, I have really fallen in love with my graphical interface on my Sun Workstation at work. At first I didn't like it, but over a period of time I have grown to love the power and flexablity that it gives me and have wanted to look into something similar for home. OS/2 is interesting, but requires TOO much reworking of my system and too much expense for me at this time. Windows 3.0 looks interesting since it appears that I can have multiple DOS windows all running concurrently. Additionally, if I develop a Windows application, it "is supposed" to port fairly easily into the OS2/PM environment (with some kind of a dynamic library converter). I started all this looking around by reading the PC Magazine article on multi-tasker's, but I still have some questions: 1. It is my understanding the Windows 3.0 will work on BOTH a 386 as well as a 286. (I will be upgrading systems in about a year.) However, I will NOT have full multi-tasking while on the 286. (True or False?) 2. What else do I give up in 286 mode (if anything)? 3. If I wanted a SECOND license for my 386 (rather than just "taking" a second copy) is there a "cheap solution" to getting a second license or do I have to put the $150.00 down again? (Slipping on my pirate patch for just a second, is the software copy protected in any way?) 4. For both versions (286 and 386) can I fully expect the following applications to work under Windows (in a DOS window of course): WordStar 2000, Lotus 2.0, Quicken, MKS Toolkit, Microsoft C and MASM, and most games. What about a DOS program that does direct screen writes? (My guess is they "work in 386", fail in 286 mode) Probably a similar answer for a DOS program that uses graphics. Mace Utilities and Fastback are probably NOT a good idea under windows and Xtree "it depends on what you are doing". Comments? 5. How much disc space is needed (I am down to about 5 Megs on my system) and will DOS 3.2 work or will I need 3.3. (Actually 3.3 would allow me to get a second 8Meg partition out of my disc I have never been able to access under 3.2.) 6. I have a Mouse Systems Bus Mouse. Will that work (it is supposed to have a Microsoft driver) or will I need a MS-mouse? 7. I have heard there are problems with communications software running under Windows. I have Mirror III a CrossTalk Clone. I will have to give up this package or run only under DOS? Are there other communication packages available? (I need D210 and VT100 Terminal Emulation as a minimum, plus the usual protocols of course.) 8. How friendly is Windows 3.0 with the various LAN packages. Eventually, when I get my second computer (the 386) I was planning on getting LANtastic so I could share Disc files between the two systems. Would I need to change this thinking if I got Windows? 9. There was also one interesting statement that PC Magazine made that perhaps someone could clarify for me. I was under the impression that a 386SX could do EVERYTHING that a standard 386 could do, it just did it sixteen bits at a time instead of 32. But then I don't know what PC Magazine ment by this: "When the disk cache was not loaded or when extended memory was not available (as on the 386SX test system with only 2MB of memory) . . " Does this mean their test system must of only had Expanded memory? Or is there a 386SX limitation I am not aware of? Frank Merrow frank@odetic.com
ms33@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Sullivan, a.k.a. Sully) (10/09/90)
In article <1990Oct8.185124.14940@odetics.com> frank@odetics.UUCP (Frank Merrow) writes: Frank (and anyone else that would like to know), > >...but I still have some questions: > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >1. It is my understanding the Windows 3.0 will work on BOTH a 386 as well as >a 286. (I will be upgrading systems in about a year.) However, I will NOT >have full multi-tasking while on the 286. (True or False?) You will have multi-tasking of window programs. On a 286, a dos program will halt all window programs while running. (i.e. many window programs -OR- one DOS program.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >2. What else do I give up in 286 mode (if anything)? Reasonable speed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >3. If I wanted a SECOND license for my 386 (rather than just "taking" a >second copy) is there a "cheap solution" to getting a second license or do I >have to put the $150.00 down again? (Slipping on my pirate patch for just >a second, is the software copy protected in any way?) Good question. I don't think that there is a discount for a second license. You should be able to find a copy for around $100 though. And no, it is not copy-protected. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >4. For both versions (286 and 386) can I fully expect the following >applications to work under Windows (in a DOS window of course): >WordStar 2000, Lotus 2.0, Quicken, MKS Toolkit, Microsoft C and MASM, and >most games. What about a DOS program that does direct screen writes? (My >guess is they "work in 386", fail in 286 mode) Probably a similar answer >for a DOS program that uses graphics. Mace Utilities and Fastback are >probably NOT a good idea under windows and Xtree "it depends on what >you are doing". Comments? In 286 mode, you loose 64K to windows in Dos mode. You cannot have a DOS "window". On a 386 in enhanced mode (2Meg or more of ram) you loose about 4-6K of ram to windows. You cannot run a program that does graphics as a window, but you can still multi-task while it is in full screen mode (on a 386 of course). Xtree should work under windows. I don't believe Fastback (or any program that grabs the drive controller) will work though. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >5. How much disc space is needed (I am down to about 5 Megs on my system) >and will DOS 3.2 work or will I need 3.3. (Actually 3.3 would allow me >to get a second 8Meg partition out of my disc I have never been able to access >under 3.2.) I assume someone will post a correction to this answer: I THINK that Win3 takes about 4 Meg. I don't know if a 286 will need room for a swap-file or not (You would want at least 3-5Meg for a swap file if it does.) Either way, go to DOS 3.3, I've never complained about having 8Meg extra. (And heaven forbid that you use any public-domain programs, background pictures (.bmp), etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >6. I have a Mouse Systems Bus Mouse. Will that work (it is supposed to have >a Microsoft driver) or will I need a MS-mouse? It should work. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >7. I have heard there are problems with communications software running >under Windows. I have Mirror III a CrossTalk Clone. I will have to give >up this package or run only under DOS? Are there other communication >packages available? (I need D210 and VT100 Terminal Emulation as a >minimum, plus the usual protocols of course.) Yes, there are several terminal programs out for windows. I haven't found one that I like as much as PROCOMM (Yes, a die-hard fan of 2.4.1), but they are getting better on a daily basis. Terminal, comes with windows. WinQVT is an EXCELENT VT100 emulator (Vax users can run EDT without any problem and is shareware. And many people have been talking about WinComm (haven't tried it yet.) On a 386, you should be able to run Mirror III from a DOS window. I will warn you that I have a friend that has problems running Crosstalk from a dos window (it works, it just causes some confusion). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >8. Lan Packages & 9. 386 vs 386sx Don't know. Suggestions: If you wish to run windows and not sit still, I suggest getting a 386 25MHz with 4 Meg of Ram. 8 Meg wouldn't hurt. Windows is nice, I like it, but it REALLY taxes a machine. With a variety of programs, I could not tell the difference from a 286-12 and a 386-25, because all the wait was in the screen. That problem has been solved. I can see windows think on a 386-25, and would not want anything slower. Also, if you do not have more than 2Meg on your 286 -AND- you are not willing to get window programs, don't get it till you have a 386. If you don't get 2Meg or more memory in your 386, don't get it then either. $150 is cheap compared to the hardware you need to run it (at a decent speed). Hope this helps, Mike Sullivan One of many Michael P. Sullivans, my views are expressly my own, and are not endorsed by my boss, fellow workers, or any other Mike Sullivan. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internet: ms33@prism.gatech.edu | Ga.Tech, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
jmerrill@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Jason Merrill) (10/10/90)
In article <1990Oct8.185124.14940@odetics.com> frank@odetics.UUCP (Frank Merrow) writes: >1. It is my understanding the Windows 3.0 will work on BOTH a 386 as well as >a 286. (I will be upgrading systems in about a year.) However, I will NOT >have full multi-tasking while on the 286. (True or False?) For Windows programs, you won't have "full" multitasking on a 386, either. If you want full (i.e. like UNIX, with job priorities) multitasking, you need to wait for OS/2 2.0. But under 386 mode, you can multitask DOS programs, whereas in standard mode you can only have one DOS box, and it doesn't run in the background. >2. What else do I give up in 286 mode (if anything)? The ability to run DOS in a window (and thus cut and paste), virtual memory >3. If I wanted a SECOND license for my 386 (rather than just "taking" a >second copy) is there a "cheap solution" to getting a second license or do I >have to put the $150.00 down again? (Slipping on my pirate patch for just >a second, is the software copy protected in any way? Nothing MS is copy-protected that I know of. Anyway, if you are the principal user (80%), you can use it on as many computers as you like; the licence is one-site OR one-user. >4. For both versions (286 and 386) can I fully expect the following >applications to work under Windows (in a DOS window of course) >WordStar 2000, Lotus 2.0, Quicken, MKS Toolkit, Microsoft C and MASM, and >most games. What about a DOS program that does direct screen writes? (My >guess is they "work in 386", fail in 286 mode) Probably a similar answer >for a DOS program that uses graphics. Mace Utilities and Fastback are >probably NOT a good idea under windows and Xtree "it depends on what >you are doing". Comments? The only programs that fail under Win3 are those that use DOS extenders (Lotus 3.0, Mathematica, AutoCad 386, most other programs with the word "386" in them). >5. How much disc space is needed (I am down to about 5 Megs on my system) >and will DOS 3.2 work or will I need 3.3. (Actually 3.3 would allow me >to get a second 8Meg partition out of my disc I have never been able to access >under 3.2.) My windows subdirectory is taking up >7 megs on my HD, but I have several extra files in there. Windows Setup requires this much space: 386 Enhanced mode: 6,300,000 bytes Standard mode: 4,500,000 bytes Network Workstation: 200,000 bytes >6. I have a Mouse Systems Bus Mouse. Will that work (it is supposed to have >a Microsoft driver) or will I need a MS-mouse? Win3 directly supports Mouse Systems serial mice; I don't know about the Bus mouse. I would imagine that you could use the Microsoft setting. >7. I have heard there are problems with communications software running >under Windows. I have Mirror III a CrossTalk Clone. I will have to give >up this package or run only under DOS? Are there other communication >packages available? (I need D210 and VT100 Terminal Emulation as a >minimum, plus the usual protocols of course.) I use Kermit in a DOS box under Win3...I only have problems with lost characters on downloads, which I had under DESQview as well, though not as bad. >8. How friendly is Windows 3.0 with the various LAN packages. Eventually, >when I get my second computer (the 386) I was planning on getting >LANtastic so I could share Disc files between the two systems. Would >I need to change this thinking if I got Windows? We use Novell Netware 2.15 SFT in the PC Lab here, and have had no problems other than that you need to exit windows to log in as a different user. I don't know about LANtastic. >9. There was also one interesting statement that PC Magazine made that perhaps >someone could clarify for me. I was under the impression that a 386SX could >do EVERYTHING that a standard 386 could do, it just did it sixteen bits at >a time instead of 32. But then I don't know what PC Magazine ment by this: >"When the disk cache was not loaded or when extended memory was not available >(as on the 386SX test system with only 2MB of memory) . . " Does this mean >their test system must of only had Expanded memory? Or is there a 386SX >limitation I am not aware of? The only difference between the 386DX and the 386SX is the data path, and the type of memory used. Internal operations are still 32-bit. I'd need more context to tell you what PC Mag is talking about. -- Jason Merrill jmerrill@jarthur.claremont.edu
jls@hsv3.UUCP (James Seidman) (10/10/90)
In article <14816@hydra.gatech.EDU> ms33@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Sullivan, a.k.a. Sully) writes: >>2. What else do I give up in 286 mode (if anything)? >Reasonable speed. Is this true? Obviously a 286 in standard mode is slower than a 386 in standard mode, because a 286 is slower. But is running in standard mode really any slower than enhanced mode for running Windows apps? For running DOS apps, I understand standard mode is *faster* because Windows doesn't do all the I/O trapping it does in enhanced mode. -- Jim Seidman (Drax), the accidental engineer. "It doesn't have to work... they'll be paralyzed just from laughing at me." - Dr. Who, _Shada_ UUCP: ames!vsi1!headland!jls INTERNET: headland.UUCP!jls@apple.com
marshall@wind55.seri.gov (Marshall L. Buhl) (10/11/90)
frank@odetics.com (Frank Merrow) writes: >1. It is my understanding the Windows 3.0 will work on BOTH a 386 as well as >a 286. (I will be upgrading systems in about a year.) However, I will NOT >have full multi-tasking while on the 286. (True or False?) And on an 8088 too. I'm not sure of all the limitations of a 286. Never used standard mode. >2. What else do I give up in 286 mode (if anything)? Virtual 8086s. You can't run DOS apps in a window or multitask them. >3. If I wanted a SECOND license for my 386 (rather than just "taking" a >second copy) is there a "cheap solution" to getting a second license or do I >have to put the $150.00 down again? (Slipping on my pirate patch for just >a second, is the software copy protected in any way?) Microsoft now allows you to put their products on as many PCs as you desire. However you get a card that you must have on you when you're using the product. >4. For both versions (286 and 386) can I fully expect the following >applications to work under Windows (in a DOS window of course): >WordStar 2000, Lotus 2.0, Quicken, MKS Toolkit, Microsoft C and MASM, and >most games. What about a DOS program that does direct screen writes? (My >guess is they "work in 386", fail in 286 mode) Probably a similar answer >for a DOS program that uses graphics. Mace Utilities and Fastback are >probably NOT a good idea under windows and Xtree "it depends on what >you are doing". Comments? I've found no problems with any program on my 386s unless they use protected mode. Can't help you on the 286 issue. I would never run backups or a disk optimizer while running windows. Do that stuff before you start Win to be safe. >5. How much disc space is needed (I am down to about 5 Megs on my system) >and will DOS 3.2 work or will I need 3.3. (Actually 3.3 would allow me >to get a second 8Meg partition out of my disc I have never been able to access >under 3.2.) If you're going to run Windows and Win apps, I'd suggest you have a minimum of 20-30 MB free before you get into this stuff. It really eats up the disk storage. If you don't already have DOS 3.3, get 4.0 instead. You'll get all your disk in a single partition. DOS 4 has been out for years now. Time to switch. DOS 5 won't be out until Summer. You can possibly get by with only 8MB free if you won't be running any big apps like Word for Windows. You won't get much of a swap file though. >6. I have a Mouse Systems Bus Mouse. Will that work (it is supposed to have >a Microsoft driver) or will I need a MS-mouse? Don't know. I've had zero problems with my Logitech Bus Mouse. >7. I have heard there are problems with communications software running >under Windows. I have Mirror III a CrossTalk Clone. I will have to give >up this package or run only under DOS? Are there other communication >packages available? (I need D210 and VT100 Terminal Emulation as a >minimum, plus the usual protocols of course.) It's not perfect, but it works for me. I've run Crosstalk XVI (non-Windows version) from Win3. Haven't tried background downloads though. >8. How friendly is Windows 3.0 with the various LAN packages. Eventually, >when I get my second computer (the 386) I was planning on getting >LANtastic so I could share Disc files between the two systems. Would >I need to change this thinking if I got Windows? Haven't tried that yet. I understand it's supposed to work with mainstream LANs. But LANtastic isn't one of them. I think others have made it work. >9. There was also one interesting statement that PC Magazine made that perhaps >someone could clarify for me. I was under the impression that a 386SX could >do EVERYTHING that a standard 386 could do, it just did it sixteen bits at >a time instead of 32. But then I don't know what PC Magazine ment by this: >"When the disk cache was not loaded or when extended memory was not available >(as on the 386SX test system with only 2MB of memory) . . " Does this mean >their test system must of only had Expanded memory? Or is there a 386SX >limitation I am not aware of? I was under the impression the difference was only in speed when running 32-bit stuff. Personally, I think my 385/25 is too slow for Win 3. I'm strapping on my kneepads now to beg my boss for a 486/33. If only Congress would give us our new money... Good luck! -- Marshall L. Buhl, Jr. EMAIL: marshall@seri.gov Senior Computer Missionary VOICE: (303)231-1014 Wind Research Branch 1617 Cole Blvd., Golden, CO 80401-3393 Solar Energy Research Institute Solar - safe energy for a healthy future
marshall@wind55.seri.gov (Marshall L. Buhl) (10/11/90)
ms33@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Sullivan, a.k.a. Sully) writes: >In article <1990Oct8.185124.14940@odetics.com> frank@odetics.UUCP (Frank Merrow) writes: >In 286 mode, you loose 64K to windows in Dos mode. You cannot have a >DOS "window". On a 386 in enhanced mode (2Meg or more of ram) you >loose about 4-6K of ram to windows. You cannot run a program that >does graphics as a window, You can do CGA graphics on a VGA in a Window. -- Marshall L. Buhl, Jr. EMAIL: marshall@seri.gov Senior Computer Missionary VOICE: (303)231-1014 Wind Research Branch 1617 Cole Blvd., Golden, CO 80401-3393 Solar Energy Research Institute Solar - safe energy for a healthy future
philba@microsoft.UUCP (Phil BARRETT) (10/12/90)
In article <14816@hydra.gatech.EDU> ms33@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Sullivan, a.k.a. Sully) writes: >In article <1990Oct8.185124.14940@odetics.com> frank@odetics.UUCP (Frank Merrow) writes: > >>3. If I wanted a SECOND license for my 386 (rather than just "taking" a >>second copy) is there a "cheap solution" to getting a second license or do I >>have to put the $150.00 down again? (Slipping on my pirate patch for just >>a second, is the software copy protected in any way?) > >Good question. I don't think that there is a discount for a second >license. You should be able to find a copy for around $100 though. >And no, it is not copy-protected. > You may not need to worry, quoting from the license agreement (from the win3 box) section 1(a): ... if one individual uses the Dedicated Computer more than 80% of the time it is in use, then that individual may also use the SOFTWARE on a portable or home computer. You need to determine if this applies to your situation. Any opinions expressed herein are mine and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. Phil
bcw@rti.rti.org (Bruce Wright) (10/13/90)
In article <marshall.655581428@wind55>, marshall@wind55.seri.gov (Marshall L. Buhl) writes: > ms33@prism.gatech.EDU (Mike Sullivan, a.k.a. Sully) writes: > > >In article <1990Oct8.185124.14940@odetics.com> frank@odetics.UUCP (Frank Merrow) writes: > > >In 286 mode, you loose 64K to windows in Dos mode. You cannot have a > >DOS "window". On a 386 in enhanced mode (2Meg or more of ram) you > >loose about 4-6K of ram to windows. You cannot run a program that > >does graphics as a window, > > You can do CGA graphics on a VGA in a Window. Very slowly - it's nice to be able to do this, but after experimenting with it a bit I think it's more useful to either get a real Windows version of something, or run it full-screen (with or without Windows) if it does significant graphics. It's a really significant performance hit - I don't recall the exact figures, but some friends of mine and I timed it at something around a factor of 10 (!) for a fairly simple graphics program. It's adequate for incidental graphics but hardly for production work (maybe on a 50 MHz 486 ...) Bruce C. Wright