wales@ucla-cs.UUCP (12/02/84)
I brought up some issues about synthetic oil in general, and Mobil 1 in
particular, a couple of months ago. I have since gathered some more
information which the net might be interested in.
I own a 1984 Honda Accord LX Hatchback with 5-speed manual transmission.
The car is now about 6 months old and has about 4,600 miles on it.
After about 600 miles of driving, I changed the oil and the filter and
put Mobil 1 synthetic oil in the car. At about 3,000 miles, I replaced
the filter only.
Two questions arose as a result of what I did:
(1) Would the use of a synthetic oil cause the car's manufacturer to try
and disclaim the new-car warranty if engine problems occurred?
(2) Was 600 miles an insufficient wear-in period before switching to
synthetic oil? Might this have resulted in permanent damage or im-
pairment to the engine? Would it be advisable to switch back to a
conventional oil for a few thousand miles so as to allow wear-in to
continue as originally intended by the manufacturer?
First, the warranty question. Honda's literature on the 1984 Accord
(the warranty manual, owner's manual, and mechanic's shop manual) does
not say anything about synthetic vs. conventional oil. All it requires
w/r/t oil is that it be SE or SF "fuel efficient" grade, be of a weight
determined by a chart in the manuals (according to the temperatures at
which the car will be driven), and that oil and filter be replaced at
least every 7,500 miles or 7.5 months (whichever comes first). In ex-
tremely dusty conditions, or when the car is driven only for extremely
short distances and does not have time to warm up, they recommend chang-
ing oil and filter every 3,000 miles or 3 months.
For the temperatures that prevail year-round in Los Angeles (where I
live), the oil-weight chart suggested 10W-30 or 10W-40 weight oil. Mo-
bil 1 comes only in a single weight, 5W-30.
I discussed the question with one of Honda's customer service people at
their west-coast center in Gardena, CA (near L.A.). He in turn checked
with one or more in-house experts to be sure he was giving me accurate
information.
According to the Honda customer service people, Mobil 1 is (repeat, IS)
acceptable for use in my car, and does not (repeat, NOT) void my new-car
warranty -- with the following caveats:
(1) Honda does NOT accept Mobil's claims that their synthetic oil need
only be changed once every 25,000 miles or 1 year. To keep my war-
ranty in force, I must stick to Honda's 7,500-mile/7.5-month sched-
ule for changing oil and filter.
The main objections that Honda reportedly has to keeping synthetic
oil in the engine for excessive periods are:
(a) Although the main component of the synthetic oil may last that
long, the various additives may not.
(b) The various impurities which collect in the oil need to be
flushed out by changing the oil and filter on schedule.
I specifically asked about the weight question (since Mobil 1 is not
10W-30 or 10W-40), and was told that 5W-30 oil is considered to be a
"better" weight and offers more protection than the recommended 10W-
30 or 10W-40. Hence, Mobil 1 (or any other 5W-30 weight oil) is ac-
ceptable for use in my car.
(2) Honda has heard of several cases where car owners have experienced
increased oil consumption with synthetic oil. It is Honda's opinion
that synthetic oils, due to their increased "slipperiness", will
tend to leak past the piston rings at a faster rate than regular oil
would. Hence, if I use Mobil 1, I should be prepared for greater-
than-average oil consumption (they didn't quote me a figure), and I
should be especially sure to check the oil level frequently and add
oil when necessary.
So much for the warranty issue -- at least for Honda. I cannot say any-
thing about any other manufacturer, but the following points seem to be
generalizable. (Note: I am NOT a lawyer.)
(1) Unless the warranty or owner's manual explicitly forbids synthetic
oil, you probably cannot have your warranty voided for using Mobil 1
or Amsoil. My understanding of U.S. consumer law is that, if such a
prohibition is not in WRITING, it cannot be enforced. (Of course,
you might be in for a BIG hassle if the mfr. wants to make life hard
for you!)
(2) The fact that Mobil 1 is 5W-30 should probably not deter someone
from using it, even if the owner's manual recommends only 10W-30.
(3) Follow the manufacturer's schedule for changing the oil and filter,
even if it seems wasteful with synthetic oil. If you ignore this
point, you might as well tear up your warranty booklet.
Now, on to the question of whether Mobil 1 is suitable for a brand-new
car. I called Mobil's toll-free "oil hotline" (1-800-LUBE-OIL) and
spoke to one of their experts. He checked on some points and called me
back a few days later. What I gleaned from him was this:
(1) It is probably a good idea to use conventional oil during the first
7,500 or 8,000 miles. A certain amount of friction is necessary
during the wear-in period; a premature switch to synthetic oil could
"glaze" the piston rings and interfere with proper wear-in of the
engine.
(2) It might have been advisable for me to switch back to conventional
oil, but ONLY if I were seeing a prodigiously high oil consumption
rate -- such as 1 quart every 500-800 miles. Since I am not going
through oil at anything approaching that rate, Mobil says I might as
well stick to Mobil 1 now.
The Mobil guy also said he had heard a rumor (no details available) to
the effect that at least one auto manufacturer was considering filling
its crankcases with Mobil 1 when they left the factory!
--
Rich Wales
UCLA Computer Science Department
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, CA 90024 // (213) 825-5683
ARPA: wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!walesems@amdahl.UUCP (E. Michael Smith) (12/03/84)
> I brought up some issues about synthetic oil in general, and Mobil 1 in > particular, a couple of months ago. I have since gathered some more > information which the net might be interested in. > > I own a 1984 Honda Accord LX Hatchback with 5-speed manual transmission. > The car is now about 6 months old and has about 4,600 miles on it. > > -- > Rich Wales It is worth noting that HONDA uses 10w-40 in the transmission. *** DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OR EXTRA SLIPPERY OIL IN THE TRANSMISSION *** I own a 1980 HONDA civic (with 133k miles on the original engine. Only work on it was a water pump at 120k miles! and shocks). This car is great. At 50k miles I did the regular tune up stuff. Being a fanatic about lubrication, I put in long drain oil. I also put this in the tranny. Over the next couple of months I thought the transmission was going. I acted exactly like syncro rings dying. A soft crunch to get into 2nd, some difficulty with other gears. All of this was cured when I realized that the syncro's depend on the right amount of friction to work. I changed the tranny back to plain old rot gut oil and all was well. I asked the local HONDA dealer about slippery oil in the tranny, and all the mechanic had to say was that they had *rebuilt* many transmissions which had had ARCO GRAPHITE put in them. I take this to be a commendation of the lubrication provided, and a condemnation of the mechanic. He said "all the parts looked new, but they had to be replaced". Why not run some solvent through to clean out the slippery stuff? I think they just didn't understand why the transmission was 'failing'. I have used a variety of slippery oil (and some misc rot gut) over the life of my car. I have mixed brands, bases, and weights with abandon. Including MOBIL1, STP oil, ARCO GRAPHITE, MolyGraph, and my favorite PENZOIL PZL. Plus other misc oils... I *do* change oil at close to the regular drain interval. I *STILL* don't use oil between oil changes! The slippery stuff is wonderful for your engine. Just keep it out of the transmission! -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems These opinions are mine, all mine. Keep your mitts off! Anyone found attributing these opinions to another will be viciously taunted until he/she relents.
mikey@trsvax.UUCP (12/04/84)
5W may be OK with Honda, as I think Honda builds some of the most rugged engines made, but don't try 5W in the X-body V6. I've heard that GM will dis-allow warranties for using 5W in the V6. From the rumors I've heard, 5W doesn't protect the rod bearings when the engine is cold and first started, before the oil pressure has a chance to build up, leading to premature rod failure. These are just 2nd had rumors and are not verified. I'm not going to change to Mobile 1, but only because I got 90,000 on my Phoenix already. Next car, which I hope to be a new Accord, I may go the Mobile 1 route. BTW, I was at a new Honda dealership about two weeks ago. The salesmen were discussing some new Honda car that they got rumors of. Supposedly due out this spring, VERY high performance, and probably not even carried by all dealers. Anything rumorts flying elsewhere on the net? mikey at trsvax 55, it's not just a good idea, it S*CKS!!!
mikey@trsvax.UUCP (12/06/84)
I think it would be possible to flush a transmission that had the super slippery oil put in it, but I'm assuming that the manual in the Honda has all metal parts. Ii had a friend put a super slippery oil additive in his motorcycle that had a wet clutch. He couldn't hardly get the thing to move. We drained and flushed and even tried light sanding of the clutch plates (which were a composite material) to no avail. He eventually had to buy a new clutch. mikey at trsvax 55, it's not just a good idea, IT S*CKS! (actually, it's just revenue)