gary@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Gary Sclar) (11/29/84)
A friend of mine just returned from Europe and had nothing but praise for the rental car she rode around in. These cars are apparently smaller & cheaper then those sold in the U.S., but sturdier, economical to run, and very sound mechanically. Is all of this true, can these models be had in the U.S. (or is the installation of emissions control equipment too costly) and what are the most popular small cars in Europe and their characteristics.
alien@gcc-opus.ARPA (Alien Wells) (11/29/84)
In article <133@ur-cvsvax.UUCP> gary@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Gary Sclar) writes: >A friend of mine just returned from Europe and had nothing but praise for >the rental car she rode around in. These cars are apparently smaller & >cheaper then those sold in the U.S., but sturdier, economical to run, and >very sound mechanically. Is all of this true, can these models be had in >the U.S. (or is the installation of emissions control equipment too costly) >and what are the most popular small cars in Europe and their >characteristics. When I lived in Germany, I noticed the same thing, there were many very good cars there that I had never seen (some with the label Ford!). There are a number of things that have to be done to a car to sell it in the US: - meet US emission standards - meet US safety standards - meet US random regulations (lights, tires, etc, etc, etc) - get approval from US regulatory agencies - pay US import taxes I think you can easily see that a company is not likely to do all this unless they plan to see a lot of units of that particular model. Furthermore, the car isn't the same after all the redesign that is necessary. For example, look at the performance difference between an American Rabbit GTI and the European version. I don't have the stats, but there is something like a 50% horsepower increase in the European version. Another example, when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is something I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! Why didn't it come into the US? Well, the fact that it had tires half the width of normal cars that fell off at the slightest excuse might have had something to do with it. The lack of emission controls might also have been a factor. By the time it got to the US, it wouldn't have been cheap any more. Another interesting factor is image. For instance, Mercedes does not have the image in Europe that it does here, it is sort of seen as more of a GM. They sell all sorts of cars and trucks, most of them pretty down-scale. Will they ever import the low end cars to the US? Hardly! How many people would spend outrageous bucks for a Mercedes if they were also competing with VW and Chevy? By the way, most Japanese cars do not make it to the US either. I was in Bermuda on my honeymoon in September, and it was amazing how many Japanese cars I saw there. Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Of course, there are those import quotas and regulations ... Some of the cars I saw in Bermuda: Minivans by: Nissan Mitsubishi (one was at least 5 years old!) Daihitsu Pick-ups and Flat Beds by every major Japanese manufacturer except Honda More small cars models I haven't seen than you could shake a stick at An interesting note is that the most popular car maker in Bermuda seemed to be Mitsubishi. Even the police cars were Mitsubishis (in a model called the Lancer!). Oh, well. Enough for now. Alien
haapanen@watdcsu.UUCP (Tom Haapanen [DCS]) (12/01/84)
>> In article <133@ur-cvsvax.UUCP> gary@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Gary Sclar) writes: >> A friend of mine just returned from Europe and had nothing but praise for >> the rental car she rode around in. These cars are apparently smaller & >> cheaper then those sold in the U.S., but sturdier, economical to run, and >> very sound mechanically. Is all of this true, can these models be had in >> the U.S. (or is the installation of emissions control equipment too costly) >> and what are the most popular small cars in Europe and their >> characteristics. > When I lived in Germany, I noticed the same thing, there were many very good > cars there that I had never seen (some with the label Ford!). There are also a lot of cars here that the Europeans never see (but would like to, believe it or not!) > For example, look at the performance difference between an American Rabbit GTI > and the European version. I don't have the stats, but there is something like > a 50% horsepower increase in the European version. Typical case of assuming facts from random rumours. First, the Rabbit GTI is passe. It has been superseded by the VW GTI, based on the new Golf, which is *very* close to the European version. The European GTI has 112 hp DIN, or 106 hp SAE (both '84 and '85). The Rabbit GTI had 90 hp SAE, and the new VW GTI has 100 hp SAE. Doesn't look quite like 50% to me. > Another interesting factor is image. For instance, Mercedes does not have the > image in Europe that it does here, it is sort of seen as more of a GM. They > sell all sorts of cars and trucks, most of them pretty down-scale. Will they > ever import the low end cars to the US? Hardly! How many people would spend > outrageous bucks for a Mercedes if they were also competing with VW and Chevy? This is true. Mercedes is definitely overpriced in North America, and they intend to keep it that way. Importing 'el cheapo' models would not do. > By the way, most Japanese cars do not make it to the US either. I was in > Bermuda on my honeymoon in September, and it was amazing how many Japanese > cars I saw there. Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars > too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for > England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Of course, > there are those import quotas and regulations ... *** The Japanese also drive on the left-hand side of the road! *** > Some of the cars I saw in Bermuda: > Minivans by: > Nissan > Mitsubishi (one was at least 5 years old!) > Daihitsu One of the reasons Japanese and European vans are not seen here is the lack of a suitable market. In other countries, they are used extensively for commercial purposes, but here in NAmerica we have the infamous 1/2-ton pickup... Sorry about the semi-flames, but this really got to me... Tom Haapanen University of Waterloo (519) 744-2468 allegra \ clyde \ \ decvax ---- watmath --- watdcsu --- haapanen ihnp4 / / linus / The opinions herein are not those of my employers, of the University of Waterloo, and probably not of anybody else either.
ems@amdahl.UUCP (E. Michael Smith) (12/03/84)
Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars > too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for > England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Of course, > there are those import quotas and regulations ... > BTW Japan drives on the 'wrong-side' as does Austraila, New Zealand, and most former British colonies. There is a great BIG market in right hand drive cars... in Australia I saw several interesting cars *made by GM and FORD* that we don't get here... -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems These opinions are mine, all mine. Keep your mitts off! Anyone found attributing these opinions to another will be viciously taunted until he/she relents.
forrest@ucsbcsl.UUCP ( ) (12/03/84)
I rented a car in Europe this summer. I got a Fiat Uno for about $99/week. It was a great car, although it was a little underpowered. This only mattered in Germany where autobahns exist. Otherwise, the gas milage, ~50mpg, made it all worthwhile. Jon Forrest ucbvax!ucsbcsl!forrest
hugh@hcrvx1.UUCP (Hugh Redelmeier) (12/04/84)
>... when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is [sic] something >I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their >low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car >wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). >...Bermuda... Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars >too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for >England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Last time I was in Japan (20 years ago), they drove on the "wrong side" too.
doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (12/04/84)
> By the way, the Citroen referred to is popularly called the 'two horses' > (in French naturally). This name apprently comes from the fact that its engine > has two cylinders. I've never known anyone who drove one of them who wouldn't > give it up in a second for almost any other car... well, maybe not a Lada. The car in question is the Citroen model 2CV. It has so little ooomph that the French would joke that the model number 2CV stood for "deux chevaux", or "two horses". The moniker "Deux Chevaux" (pronounced DOO shuhVOH) is as universally recognized as the monikers "Beetle" and "Bug" are for the VW. Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug
gino@voder.UUCP (Gino Bloch) (12/04/84)
<> > By the way, the Citroen referred to is popularly called the 'two horses' > (in French naturally). This name apprently comes from the fact that its > engine has two cylinders. Actually, the engine has two `horsepower'; this refers to the taxable horsepower, which is calculated by a formula and has nothing to do with 746 watts, ie nothing to do with the engine's measured power. There used to be such a concept in the US too. The 2cv (French abbreviation for two horsepower: deux cheveux - oops, chevaux) won't out-accelerate my tricycle (the one I had when I was 6). -- Gene E. Bloch (...!nsc!voder!gino) Mr Humility
jona@clyde.UUCP (Jon Allingham) (12/06/84)
From watmath!utzoo!hcrvax!hcrvx1!hugh Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site clyde.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site hcrvx1.UUCP Path: clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcrvax!hcrvx1!hugh From: hugh@hcrvx1.UUCP (Hugh Redelmeier) Newsgroups: net.auto,net.consumers Subject: Re: cars in Europe Message-ID: <1016@hcrvx1.UUCP> Date: Tue, 4-Dec-84 09:57:55 EST Article-I.D.: hcrvx1.1016 Posted: Tue Dec 4 09:57:55 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Dec-84 03:35:23 EST References: <133@ur-cvsvax.UUCP> <151@gcc-opus.ARPA> Distribution: net Organization: Human Computing Resources, Toronto Lines: 13 Xref: watmath net.auto:5127 net.consumers:1505 >>... when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is [sic] something >>I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their >>low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car >>wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! >I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). >Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). In Germany, where this car is a very popular car for students, it is known as an 'Ente' ( a duck ) since that is what it reminds everyone of. As it can't meet the safety and emission standards in the US, and would cost more to import than what it is worth, you don't see it here. -- Jon M. Allingham (201) 386-3466 AT&T Bell Laboratories Rm 2A-110 Whippany, NJ
yosh@hou2e.UUCP (M.CHING) (12/06/84)
I believe the 2CV Citroen is called "The Ugly Duckling" elsewhere in Europe (At least it is in the Netherlands) Dave Bloom Bell Labs, Holmdel
ela@hoxna.UUCP (E.Asbeck) (12/06/84)
The 2CV is referred to as the "Enta" or duck in Germany. Its popular
with students, in particular. We saw quite a few while visiting there
this fall. Despite its appearance (something like the old VW staff
car), my wife thought it was "charming" and that she would like one.
Fortunately, that thought is behind us now and forgotten.
----------------
Eric Asbeck AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel {houxf,harpo}!hoxna!elahawk@oliven.UUCP (Rick) (12/07/84)
>By the way, the Citroen referred to is popularly called the 'two horses' >(in French naturally). This name apprently comes from the fact that its engine >has two cylinders. An aquantance (nice word, ain't it?) (it's also mizpelled) of mine who returned from living in germany says that the "two horses" is referring to the power of the engine . . . rick
haapanen@watdcsu.UUCP (Tom Haapanen [DCS]) (12/07/84)
> The car in question is the Citroen model 2CV. It has so little ooomph > that the French would joke that the model number 2CV stood for > "deux chevaux", or "two horses". The moniker "Deux Chevaux" (pronounced > DOO shuhVOH) is as universally recognized as the monikers "Beetle" > and "Bug" are for the VW. > > Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug The 2 CV in fact does refer to the taxable horsepower in France. They use some weird formula to calculate it, but you can get an idea from the fact that the various GTI-type cars in Europe (Golf, Kadett, 205, R11 and XR3i) are ranked around 9-11 CV. So, take (2 / 10) * 110 = 22 hp DIN. Not a real powerhouse, is it? \tom watmath!watdcsu!haapanen
msc@qubix.UUCP (Mark Callow) (12/08/84)
> I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). > Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). The Dyanne (sp?) and the 2CV (deux chevaux) are completely different cars though there is a vague similarity in shape. -- From the TARDIS of Mark Callow msc@qubix.UUCP, qubix!msc@decwrl.ARPA ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!qubix!msc
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (12/09/84)
> >... when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is [sic] something > >I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their > >low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car > >wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! > > I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). > Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). > > >...Bermuda... Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars > >too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for > >England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! > > Last time I was in Japan (20 years ago), they drove on the "wrong side" too. It actually says "2CV" on it. They seem to have a new model called a "3CV" as well. For some reason these cars are in abundance in Buenos Aires. I had a rather annoyed member of the United Kingdom tell me that it is merely the "left" side not the wrong side of road that they drive on. -Ron
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (12/09/84)
You don't see too many Fiat 500's in the US either.
fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink) (12/10/84)
The auto business is just that-- a business. One does not go into a market for fun or because one wants to provide a few enthusiasts with performance cars (at least this is true for the major auto companies). Up until recently (about 1981), the American market was econobox oriented in their selection of cars. Before that, it was big cars, big engines and mushy suspensions. There was no market-place, outside of us "car-cognescenti", for the majority of European cars. Now, the buyers wants have changed, and, much to their credit, the US manufacturers have responded. You need only look to the Pontiac Fiero, the Chevy Camaro or the Dodge Daytona Turbo to find reasonably priced, well-made performance cars. Even the traditional American cars have adopted a European flair, e.g. the LTD, of all things, comes with gas-charged shocks, fuel injection and a five speed. Also, the European Ford Sierra will be available in this country from Mecury dealers as the Merkur XR-4i. This is a highly successful sport -sedan in Europe. Thus, I think this myth that elsewhere in the world there are wonderful performing, much better made cars than we are able to obtain is, for the under $30K buyer, pure fantasy. (Incidentally, Ford in Germany is a wholly owned subsidiary of FoMoCo, has in the past brought us the Capri and last year was the best selling car company in England.) It has been the alledged car enthusiasts standard harange for years now to complain about the pollution controls on American cars and long for the "freedom" European drivers enjoy. While this may have been an issue a few years ago, American manufacturers are now producing performance cars with pollution controls that are the envy of the Europeans since the governments of Europe are now starting to impose the same requriements that we have-- yes, even unleaded gasoline.
chris@pixutl.UUCP (chris) (12/10/84)
>>By the way, the Citroen referred to is popularly called the 'two horses' >>(in French naturally). This name apprently comes from the fact that its engine >>has two cylinders. >An aquantance (nice word, ain't it?) (it's also mizpelled) of mine who returned >from living in germany says that the "two horses" is referring to the power of >the engine . . . >rick The name "Deux chevaux", usually abbreviated (2cv) in France comes from its 'fiscal' horse power ('chevaux fiscaux'). There is a yearly tax on cars in France (called 'vignette') based on the power of your car and the 'fiscal horse power' is the bracket in which your car belongs (from 2 to about 15 for European cars). I don't think a 2 horse power engine could move a car (even a 2cv) very far. Chris -- Chris Bertin : (617) 657-8720 x2318 Pixel Computer Inc. : 260 Fordham Rd. : {allegra|ihnp4|cbosgd|ima|genrad|amd|harvard}\ Wilmington, Ma 01887 : !wjh12!pixel!pixutl!chris
stank@uiucdcsp.UUCP (12/15/84)
<>
Mercedes doesn't have a good image in Europe??? Check out what car a Belgian
or Dutchman buys once he makes a lot of money. Yep, that's right, a Mercedes.
Granted the lower level models (not sold here) are less appreciated, but
the models sold here have as much prestige in at least those two countries
as they have here.
I don't claim that the same is true in any other country-- indeed, maybe
this isn't the case in Germany. However, it sure is in the low countries.
I base my comments on several years experience living and working in both
Holland and Belgium.
By the way, the Citroen referred to is popularly called the 'two horses'
(in French naturally). This name apprently comes from the fact that its engine
has two cylinders. I've never known anyone who drove one of them who wouldn't
give it up in a second for almost any other car... well, maybe not a Lada.
Stanley Krolikoski
..!pur-ee!uiucdcs!stank
Oh yes, a short tale. A Belgian lawyer friend of mine (neighbor of mine when
I lived in Belgium, actually) started making some money at this trade and
wished to get a prestige car. He couldn't afford a Mercedes, so he got...
a Chevy Citation-- freshing imported from the good old U.S. of A. This is,
I suspect, not all that uncommon. Several Belgian newspapers (De Standaard
and Het Nieuwsblad for two) regularly carry ads from companies which make
a nice living importing American "luxury" cars at a steep markup. Looks like
a case of the grass always being greener... The note which prompted this
response also seems to fit in this catagory.