[comp.windows.ms] Norton cache and Windows

jakg1190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (J. 'Priapus' Kmiecik) (03/01/91)

There has been some talk here about which hard drive cache is best to use
with Windows 3.  I have Norton Utilities 5 and have used the fast-cache
version (ncache-f) included in the package for the DOS environment.  How
well will this cache program work with windows and how does it compare with
Smartdrive.sys or other Windows-capable caches?  Are there any potential
problems using ncache-f and windows?

Thanks for your help.

	-Joe


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kmiecik                                  "There is only one thing worse 
E-mail: jakg1190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu             than being talked about, and 
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign    that is not being talked about."

rdippold@maui.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) (03/01/91)

In article <1991Feb28.185736.17694@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> jakg1190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (J. 'Priapus' Kmiecik) writes:
>There has been some talk here about which hard drive cache is best to use
>with Windows 3.  I have Norton Utilities 5 and have used the fast-cache
>version (ncache-f) included in the package for the DOS environment.  How
>well will this cache program work with windows and how does it compare with
>Smartdrive.sys or other Windows-capable caches?  Are there any potential
>problems using ncache-f and windows?

I've only been using it a short while, but I find that HyperDisk Cache will
blow away smartdrive, PC Tools Cache, Norton Cache, and just about any other
cache out there, although I've heard good things about the PC Kwic cache.

It's faster and it has more options than any of the other caches, and it
is fully Windows 3.0 compatible, and includes such nice features as buffered
writes, floppy caching, use of extended, expanded, or regular memory, and
more.

The best thing is, it is shareware, so you should be able to find a version
of it somewhere and try it out.  I downloaded it from a local BBS, so I don't
know if it's on any ftp sites.  The latest version is 4.20, I believe.

ISSHST@BYUVM.BITNET (03/01/91)

If you're tight on memory, like I am, Smartdrv is the only way to go.
Windows can steal memory from Smartdrv if memory is getting low.  I doubt
Norton cache can be dynamically adjusted by Windows.

jrodda@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Jonathan Rodda) (03/01/91)

Does anyone know where one can find HyperDisk on an FTP site?
Your help will be greatly appreciated.
Jonathan

altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) (03/01/91)

In article <1991Feb28.185736.17694@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> jakg1190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (J. 'Priapus' Kmiecik) writes:
>There has been some talk here about which hard drive cache is best to use
>with Windows 3.  I have Norton Utilities 5 and have used the fast-cache
>version (ncache-f) included in the package for the DOS environment.  How
>well will this cache program work with windows and how does it compare with
>Smartdrive.sys or other Windows-capable caches?  Are there any potential
>problems using ncache-f and windows?

Joe:
	You can't use ncache-f with Windows due to the way it handles 
memory.  ncache-f  requires EMS memory.  If you have EMS memory either
from a board or a driver (such as QEMM) then it will use that memory for the
cache.  If you don't have pre-defined EMS memory then ncache-f loads its own
driver to mamnage the memory.

	So you ask what is the problem.  Well, Windows disables access to
external uncooperative EMS memory drivers when it starts up.  Therefore,
ncache-f is no longer able to access its memory.  And you system will
crash.

	I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to find the 
perfect cache.  So far as I have stated earlier I feel the best package
is Hyperdisk.  PC Week agrees, with one reservation.  Hyperdisk is not
compatible with all drives.  This is because it does not use BIOS calls
but instead goes directly to the hardware.

	hope this helps.
--
- Jeff (jaltman@ccmail.sunysb.edu)

d89os@efd.lth.se ((Mr)) (03/02/91)

>In article <1991Feb28.185736.17694@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> jakg1190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (J. 'Priapus' Kmiecik) writes:
>>There has been some talk here about which hard drive cache is best to use
>>with Windows 3.  I have Norton Utilities 5 and have used the fast-cache
>>version (ncache-f) included in the package for the DOS environment.  How
>>well will this cache program work with windows and how does it compare with
>>Smartdrive.sys or other Windows-capable caches?  Are there any potential
>>problems using ncache-f and windows?

I've been using ncache-f, and it works perfectly with Windows in STANDARD 
MODE (much faster than SMARTDRV, especially on floppy read/writes).
In the ENHANCED MODE it interferes with WIndows' permanent swap file,
at least on those machines I use. The solution is to set up a separate drive
for the swap file, and disable caching for that drive. (You don't want
the swap file cached !)

In article <1991Feb28.233408.27902@qualcomm.com> rdippold@maui.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:
>I've only been using it a short while, but I find that HyperDisk Cache will
>blow away smartdrive, PC Tools Cache, Norton Cache, and just about any other
>cache out there, although I've heard good things about the PC Kwic cache.
>
>It's faster and it has more options than any of the other caches, and it
>is fully Windows 3.0 compatible, and includes such nice features as buffered
>writes, floppy caching, use of extended, expanded, or regular memory, and
>more.
>
>The best thing is, it is shareware, so you should be able to find a version
>of it somewhere and try it out.  I downloaded it from a local BBS, so I don't
>know if it's on any ftp sites.  The latest version is 4.20, I believe.

Does HyperDisk solve the problem wotj the swap file mentioned above??
In what way is it better than Norton's cache? The features mentioned above
are supported by Norton.

-- 
(Mr) Ola Sigurdson      Internet: d89os@efd.lth.se

mlord@bwdls58.bnr.ca (Mark Lord) (03/05/91)

In article <1991Mar2.023527.20342@lth.se> d89os@efd.lth.se ((Mr) Ola Sigurdson) writes:
<
<I've been using ncache-f, and it works perfectly with Windows in STANDARD 
<MODE (much faster than SMARTDRV, especially on floppy read/writes).
<In the ENHANCED MODE it interferes with WIndows' permanent swap file,
<at least on those machines I use. The solution is to set up a separate drive
<for the swap file, and disable caching for that drive. (You don't want
<the swap file cached !)
<
<Does HyperDisk solve the problem wotj the swap file mentioned above??
<In what way is it better than Norton's cache? The features mentioned above
<are supported by Norton.

I have downloaded HYPERDSK 4.20 and tried it out.  Nice program!!

It doesn't exhibit any problems with Windows SwapFiles, either temporary
or permanent.  

However, I have noticed that Desqview often hangs when I use the optional
"staged writes" feature.  Easy to fix.. I have a batch file to disable the
feature on-the-fly, invoke DV, and on exit from DV it reenables it.

HYPERDSK is Much better at memory sharing than the latest Super PC Kwik,
and the staged write feature works great with Windows.

It is somewhat slower than Super PC Kwik, because the "eliminate redundant
writes" feature is not supported in the HYPERDKX.EXE model, which is the only
model that works with QEMM.

In any event, it is incredibly faster than SMARTDRV, but then, what isn't?
-- 
 ___Mark S. Lord__________________________________________
| ..uunet!bnrgate!mlord%bmerh724 | Climb Free Or Die (NH) |
| MLORD@BNR.CA   Ottawa, Ontario | Personal views only.   |
|________________________________|________________________|

yoshida@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Stuart Yoshida) (03/05/91)

altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) writes:
> [...]
> 	I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to find the 
> perfect cache.  So far as I have stated earlier I feel the best package
> is Hyperdisk.  PC Week agrees, with one reservation.  Hyperdisk is not
> compatible with all drives.  This is because it does not use BIOS calls
> but instead goes directly to the hardware.
> --
> - Jeff (jaltman@ccmail.sunysb.edu)
> ----------

  I just talked with the author of HyperDisk, and he said, "Hyperdisk
  uses BIOS calls ONLY.  It's funny how rumors get started, isn't it?"

  So whatever problems HyperDisk has, it's *NOT* because it goes
  directly to the hardware.  It does not circumvent the software
  interface protocols; it definitely uses BIOS calls.

--

  Stuart

  "Every place around the world it seemed the same
   Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
   Everybody wants to look the other way
   When something wicked this way comes."
			--Jeremiah Blues by STING

    UUCP: {hp-sdd, hp-pcd, csu-cs, edison, hplabs}!hpfcla!yoshida
Internet: yoshida%hpfcla@hplabs.HP.COM
   VOICE: (303) 229-2324

altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) (03/06/91)

In article <7450004@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> yoshida@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Stuart Yoshida) writes:
>altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) writes:
>> [...]
>> 	I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to find the 
>> perfect cache.  So far as I have stated earlier I feel the best package
>> is Hyperdisk.  PC Week agrees, with one reservation.  Hyperdisk is not
>> compatible with all drives.  This is because it does not use BIOS calls
>> but instead goes directly to the hardware.
>> --
>> - Jeff (jaltman@ccmail.sunysb.edu)
>> ----------
>
>  I just talked with the author of HyperDisk, and he said, "Hyperdisk
>  uses BIOS calls ONLY.  It's funny how rumors get started, isn't it?"
>
>  So whatever problems HyperDisk has, it's *NOT* because it goes
>  directly to the hardware.  It does not circumvent the software
>  interface protocols; it definitely uses BIOS calls.
>
>--
>
>  Stuart

Just to qualify where I got the info to begin with is PC Week's review
of caches and Windows.  They give hyperdisk a poor rating because of 
hardware incompatibility which they state is caused by Hyperdisk's not
using BIOS calls.  

To quote p84 of the 2/18/91 PC Week: Discussion about why Power Cache 
was given highest rating even though Hyperdsk is faster.  "The two products 
differed not in their performance, but in the compatibility advantage that 
Power Cache Plus offers through its use of DOS-file I/O in lieu of the
device specific BIOS-level commands used by HyperDsk."

 
--
- Jeff (jaltman@ccmail.sunysb.edu)

tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) (03/07/91)

In article <1991Mar5.235745.1928@sbcs.sunysb.edu> altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) writes:
>Just to qualify where I got the info to begin with is PC Week's review
>of caches and Windows.  They give hyperdisk a poor rating because of 
>hardware incompatibility which they state is caused by Hyperdisk's not
                                                                    ^^^
>using BIOS calls.  
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>To quote p84 of the 2/18/91 PC Week: Discussion about why Power Cache 
>was given highest rating even though Hyperdsk is faster.  "The two products 
>differed not in their performance, but in the compatibility advantage that 
>Power Cache Plus offers through its use of DOS-file I/O in lieu of the
>device specific BIOS-level commands used by HyperDsk."
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I dunno, Jeff.  Sure sounds to me like PC Week said they used BIOS.

jlr1801@aim1.tamu.edu (Jeff Rife) (03/07/91)

In article <7450004@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> yoshida@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Stuart Yoshida) writes:
>altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) writes:
>> [...]
>> 	I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to find the 
>> perfect cache.  So far as I have stated earlier I feel the best package
>> is Hyperdisk.  PC Week agrees, with one reservation.  Hyperdisk is not
>> compatible with all drives.  This is because it does not use BIOS calls
>> but instead goes directly to the hardware.
>> --
>> - Jeff (jaltman@ccmail.sunysb.edu)
>> ----------
>
>  I just talked with the author of HyperDisk, and he said, "Hyperdisk
>  uses BIOS calls ONLY.  It's funny how rumors get started, isn't it?"
>
>  So whatever problems HyperDisk has, it's *NOT* because it goes
>  directly to the hardware.  It does not circumvent the software
>  interface protocols; it definitely uses BIOS calls.

Whatever is going on, PC Week is correct.  Hyperdisk has compatiblity problems,
but every disk cache I have tried has a problem with my hardware.

Running 386Enh, I run a DOS app, and try to read/write my 45 MB removable SCSI
hard disk, and the machine hangs.

The following caches cause this problem:

	CACHE			TIME SPENT TROUBLESHOOTING
	-----			--------------------------
	Norton cache		5 hours, plus 1-1/2 hour call to tech support
	PCKwik			1-1/2 hours (couldn't run in 386Enh at all)
	VCACHE			8+ hours, purchased because their tech support
				said it would work
	Hyperdisk		2 hours, I had given up by the time I got 
				it from cica

I use SMARTDRV.  It is a performance nightmare running certain DOS apps, but
they do run :-|

Note to Microsoft programmers who follow this group...RECODE SMARTDRV FOR MORE
SPEED.

--
Jeff Rife   P.O. Box 3836   |   "Because he was human; because he had goodness;
College Station, TX 77844   |    because he was moral they called him insane.
(409) 823-2710              |    Delusions of grandeur; visons of splendor;
jlr1801@aim1.tamu.edu       |    A manic-depressive, he walks in the rain."

altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) (03/08/91)

In article <44380214@bfmny0.BFM.COM> tneff@bfmny0.BFM.COM (Tom Neff) writes:
>In article <1991Mar5.235745.1928@sbcs.sunysb.edu> altman@sbstaff2.cs.sunysb.edu (Jeff Altman) writes:
>>Just to qualify where I got the info to begin with is PC Week's review
>>of caches and Windows.  They give hyperdisk a poor rating because of 
>>hardware incompatibility which they state is caused by Hyperdisk's not
>                                                                    ^^^
>>using BIOS calls.  
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>To quote p84 of the 2/18/91 PC Week: Discussion about why Power Cache 
>>was given highest rating even though Hyperdsk is faster.  "The two products 
>>differed not in their performance, but in the compatibility advantage that 
>>Power Cache Plus offers through its use of DOS-file I/O in lieu of the
>>device specific BIOS-level commands used by HyperDsk."
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I dunno, Jeff.  Sure sounds to me like PC Week said they used BIOS.

Okay, so I screwed up!  It happens.  The point I was trying to make was that
Hyperdsk does have some compatibility problems.  There is a difference between
BIOS-level commands which may be located on the device controller card and
BIOS commands located in the BIOS of the machine when you buy it.  This was 
what I was trying to say.  Keep in mind that I didn't have the article in 
front of me when I originally wrote this.  I do try to be accurate when I
post. 


--
- Jeff (jaltman@ccmail.sunysb.edu)