[net.auto] New car shopping--my criteria and what I've discovered

abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (01/25/85)

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I am shopping for a new car.  I thought I'd exchange information
with anyone on the net who might also be in the market, or anyone
who has any opinion at all about cars.  First I'll give my
criteria (not overall that unusual, but some personal preferences
do appear), and then I'll tell you what I've found out.  I would
like to hear from anyone who has any suggestions at all.  Prob-
ably, any discussion of cars is of sufficient interest to post
it directly to the net, or you may write to me directly if you like.
I am basically the Consumer Reports type, with an interest in
the Motor Trend/Car & Driver-type aspects of cars.  I.e., no-nonsense
economy, but I do value some muscle and also some comfort, especially
quiet.  (A quieter car doesn't need as powerful a stereo, and your
hearing may even benefit significantly.)

-----------------------CRITERIA-----------------------------------

1)  I am tall--over 6' 2".  When sitting in an econobox, it's tight.
Many econoboxes accomodate tall drivers by slanting the seat back
at a large angle backward from vertical.  This, combined with sliding
the entire seat back puts a strain on the upper back if I am to keep
my hands on the steering wheel, and in any case lessens maneuverability
in an emergency.  Needless to say, sunroofs (they all seem to remove
at least an inch of headroom) are out.

2)  I want some power.  Here in NJ we do a lot of stopping from
highway speeds at stop lights.  When the light turns green, the traffic
surges ahead at what is full acceleration for an econobox.

3)  I want good handling.  I sometimes want to drive like a maniac.

4)  I want high mileage.

5)  I want low noise, so my hearing will still be good after driving
the thing for 15,000 miles each year.  I want comfort because I spend
at least an hour each day in the car.  This is important to me.

6)  I want high reliability--no major repairs ever!  At least 100,000
miles.  I want to keep the car a long time.

7)  I don't want to pay one dollar more than necessary to achieve these
goals.

-------------------WHAT I FOUND OUT BY SHOPPING---------------------

OK, those are the goals.  

The first thing I do when I go to look at a car is to try to sit in
it.  I'm going to be doing plenty of that, so it should be good.
I have looked at:  Hondas, Mitsubishi Tredia & Cordia, Mazda 626, 
Toyota Tercel & Corolla & Camry, Nissan Stanza, Ford Tempo, Volvo.  
I want to see the Subarus, too.  As you will see, I am not at all decided.  
The Japanese cars seem to be a must to satisfy my reliability
criterion.  Some people say that Volvos are very reliable.  I am aware
of the only two people I know who had Volvos having major problems with
them.  The price is $14,000+, which is too much for something that is
only *maybe* more reliable.  The Nissan Stanza is available including
airconditioning for about $9500 including dealer's charges.  The Ford
Tempo for $8000.  The Toyota Camry (seems pretty desirable but expensive)
for $11,000.  The cheapest Honda Accord is about $12,000.  I can't
seem to get into buying a Civic because the name Civic reminds me of
those supercheapo cars of the early 70's.  The Mitsubishi is available
for, if memory serves, $9000 to $11,000, with increments representing
a more luxurious model and turbocharging, respectively.  The turbocharged
Mitsubishi Cordia or Tredia (these are the hatchback and sedan, 
respectively) seem like they might be terrific fun.  But the seat is
so "well-contoured" that it is pressing hard into my hips on either side
so that I'm not comfortable.  You need narrower hips than I have to sit in
one of these Mitsubishis.

All the Japanese cars and the Volvo tell you in their brochure about
the horsepower and torque of the engine (usually at a specified RPM),
but the Ford Tempo doesn't.  I'm left to guess at the horsepower, which
seems to me to be a real important quantity since (in the ideal case
of a infinitely adjustable transmission) horsepower is proportional
to velocity times acceleration.  Obviously the higher the horsepower
the better the acceleration.  At high speeds that acceleration is
really needed because the high velocity is taking up a greater proportion
of the velocity-acceleration product.  Of course this relationship
neglects air resistance which is the main consumer of gasoline at
high speeds, so the horsepower would be even more needed at high
speeds.  But the Ford Motor Co. won't tell you the horsepower of
their engines.  If you want more power, they say, get a V6 engine.

Bigger cars (still within the Japanese scale of autos) are heavier,
approaching closer to 2500 pounds.  The cheapest econoboxes (Tercel,
Sentra, Escort, Omni/Horizon, etc.) weigh in at about 2000 lbs.  This
means they need less horsepower to accelerate and to go uphill.  But
wind resistance isn't that much less for them, I'll warrant, so their
underpowered engines seem to be huffing and puffing at the high speeds
where the wind resistance dominates.  Furthermore, I weigh 200 lbs.
myself, so I guess I'll have to go on a diet :-) to help out.  If I
were to take a few passengers, I could easily add 600 lbs. to the weight
of the car, and that econobox would really be slow.  In
this case, it would weigh at least as much or more than a 2500 lb.
car but with the miniscule ~70 hp. engine.

A major problem to my mind with the Honda Accord is that to change
the oil filter you have to raise the whole machine on ramps or
something.  (Expletive-deleted)!  I couldn't even see the oil filter
going down on the floor in the dealership.  But in the turbo-charged
Mitsubishi's you are advised to change the oil every 3000 miles!
Does that mean you would be well-advised to do it every 1500?
Give me a break!

The Fords are rumored to be the most reliable American cars.  Lee
Iacocca has the 5 year warranty, but Ford has the better car.
The Mustang weighs 3000 pounds, and while it looks not-so-sporty
compared to the old days it is still edging towards that muscle
car image at 3000 lbs.  The fuel economy was EPA'd at around 20 mpg.
Whether that is less with a 6 cylinder engine, I don't recall.
The other cars mostly are closer to the high 20's in the mpg ratings.
That's important to me, too.


I am leaning towards the Nissan Stanzas.  The dealers aren't acting
as independently as the Toyota dealers.  Besides, the roofs of the
Toyotas seem to give less headroom than the Stanza.  I couldn't
fit into the Corolla.  The Stanza price is reasonable ($9500).  It's
got to be reliable since it's Japanese.  But there was some talk
that the Nissan was not as good a product as the Honda, Toyota,
or Subaru.  Maybe Consumer Reports found their reliability to
be occasionally worse than the latter.  So that may account for
the greater availability and consequently lower price.

In the area of safety, Volvo has always claimed to be the safest.
Whether this is true seems to be definitely unclear.  Volvo
enthusiasts, take up the challenge.  As far as Saabs are concerned,
they sound like they have something going for them, based on what
was recently posted to  net.auto, and what Saab advertises.  The
only person I know who had a Saab also had really horrible problems
with it.  Enough said.  By the way, is Saab Swedish like Volvo?

About bigger American cars: they're not all so big.  I sat in
a Thunderbird with power seat controls.  It was sort of like
sitting on a big pillow-cushioned thing but it was cramped too.
The power controls are redundant... they give you more controls
than the seat has degrees of freedom.

I do want to take another look at the Mazda 626, because it seemed 
to be fairly comfortable to sit in.  The price is higher, I believe, 
somewhere near $11,000 or possibly more.  And if I decide to opt 
for maximum economy within limits, I may get a Ford Tempo or Mercury 
Topaz (the equivalent).

Comments?    --J. Abeles.

P.S.:  If I felt I could, I would prefer to give my business to
Americans, not foreigners (foreigners, please understand).  But
I feel that it's gotten to the point where I will really suffer
by having to go back and forth to the repair shop with an American
or even European car.  It's not just the money, it's the inconvenience!

mag@whuxlm.UUCP (Gray Michael A) (01/27/85)

> 
> A major problem to my mind with the Honda Accord is that to change
> the oil filter you have to raise the whole machine on ramps or
> something.  (Expletive-deleted)!  I couldn't even see the oil filter
> going down on the floor in the dealership.  But in the turbo-charged

I have an 84 Honda, and this is a pain -- you have to jack up the car
about 6 inches on one side and crawl under with a strap wrench or a socket
wrench.  It adds about 15 minutes to the time one would normally change
oil.  But I wouldn't allow this to have a major effect on a buying
decision -- it costs me about 1/2 hour of minor inconvenience
annually.  Also, I switched to Mobil One after 7500 miles, so I
only change the oil annually from now on.  (This violates the
owner's manual advice, but I don't care.)  Anyway, it's not
a "major problem."  I just jack behind the left front wheel with
the Honda scissors jack and stick in a stand for safety.

> 
> In the area of safety, Volvo has always claimed to be the safest.
> Whether this is true seems to be definitely unclear.  Volvo
> enthusiasts, take up the challenge.  As far as Saabs are concerned,

I was hit on the driver's door by a driver who skidded out of control at
about 25-30 mph.  My car was knocked sideways about 15
feet.  The car that hit me was about a 3000 lb Ford.  Result:
Sheet metal on front and rear doors was trashed. A little bit
of the quarter panel was trashed.  No broken glass. No interior
damage.  No injuries (I had on belts.)  The beams in the doors
did not deform.  The pillar between them did not deform.
Repair cost: $1909.00.
> 
> P.S.:  If I felt I could, I would prefer to give my business to
> Americans, not foreigners (foreigners, please understand).  But

Four door Accords and Civics sold east of the Mississippi are
manufactured in Marysville, Ohio, by American labor.  Mine is
one of these and the quality is excellent.  I was also influenced
by the desire the help the balance-of-payments without sacrificing
quality.  The Honda offered me this choice.

If this sounds like a plug for Honda, it is!  I used to drive
large Pontiacs and recently converted to Honda.  I am glad I did.

Regarding other Japanese cars, some gut feelings and ramblings:
Honda and Toyota are very reliable, and certainly the best looking,
in my opinion.  Nissans are good looking, but unreliable.  Mazda
and Subaru aren't that stylish, and have inferior reliability also.
Mitsubishis are nice looking, but I have no knowledge of reliability.

Mike Gray, BTL, WH

heneghan@ihu1m.UUCP (Joe Heneghan) (01/28/85)

Just a few additional remarks:
- Rust reputation (Fords and Datsuns)
- Roominess for big people (Wilt Chamberlain probably
                            sat in the back seat in that
                            Rabbit commercial)
- Can you add a trailer hitch and still be under warranty?
- Can your car be readily fixed? (parts availability as
                                  well as competent mechanics)
- Do you pay for options declared as "standard" (already fixed
  into the base price)that you could care less about?
- Are you being price gauged?

scott@opus.UUCP (Scott Wiesner) (01/30/85)

> And if I decide to opt 
> for maximum economy within limits, I may get a Ford Tempo or Mercury 
> Topaz (the equivalent).

Ack!  I'd never even consider a Ford or Chrysler product.  I had to 
drive several Ford and Chrysler rental cars last year, (Tempos and 
K-cars) and thought they were trash.  The difference between the 
overall feel of the rental cars and Japanese cars I've driven was
like the difference between a real piano and a toy one.  The first
K-car I drove handled so poorly in the snow I thought there was 
something wrong with it until I drove a few others and realized that's
just how bad they are.  
-- 

Scott Wiesner
{allegra, ucbvax, cornell}!nbires!scott

doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (01/31/85)

> I have looked at:  Hondas, Mitsubishi Tredia & Cordia, Mazda 626, 
> Toyota Tercel & Corolla & Camry, Nissan Stanza, Ford Tempo, Volvo.  
> I want to see the Subarus, too.

You might want to take a quick look at what Iacocca's boys have been
doing with Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge.  While I usually start finding
"design shortcomings" after owning a new car for a few weeks, my '84
Dodge Turbo Daytona keeps impressing me more and more.  The engineering
is not just state-of-the-art, it's *robust* state-of-the-art.  The
Chrysler engineers did a LOT of homework.

The Honda owners griping about their oil filters would *die* if they
saw how easy the access is on my transverse 2.2.  And the rest of the
routine maintenance points are just as easy.  Damn good design job.

The manufacturing quality is not up to what, say, Toyota delivers.
The problems are little things -- a trim panel not fastened down,
the seat-belt won't keep any slack.  Things I could probably fix
myself if I had the inclination.  Unlike my past experiences
with new cars, these problems are getting FIXED under warranty.
Maybe not the best-built, but from my experience I agree about
"best-backed".

Oh, btw, I traded in a Toyota, which had given me excellent service.

Another car you might look at while you're at the Dodge/Plymouth
dealer is the Turbo Colt.  It's made by Mitsubishi.  I've heard a lot
of good things from owners, and nothing bad.  Don't know for myself.

> The Stanza price is reasonable ($9500).  It's
> got to be reliable since it's Japanese.  But there was some talk
> that the Nissan was not as good a product as the Honda, Toyota,
> or Subaru.

My (admittedly limited) experience has been that Nissan should not
be considered a "reliable Japanese" brand.  Since statements like
that tend to provoke flames, I'll leave it at that.
-- 
Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug

howard@amdahl.UUCP (Howard C. Simonson) (02/08/85)

> only *maybe* more reliable.  The Nissan Stanza is available including
> airconditioning for about $9500 including dealer's charges.  The Ford
> Tempo for $8000.  The Toyota Camry (seems pretty desirable but expensive)
> for $11,000.  The cheapest Honda Accord is about $12,000.  I can't
> ...
> ...
> I am leaning towards the Nissan Stanzas.  The dealers aren't acting
> as independently as the Toyota dealers.  Besides, the roofs of the
> Toyotas seem to give less headroom than the Stanza.  I couldn't
> fit into the Corolla.  The Stanza price is reasonable ($9500).  It's
> got to be reliable since it's Japanese.  But there was some talk
> that the Nissan was not as good a product as the Honda, Toyota,
> or Subaru.  Maybe Consumer Reports found their reliability to
> be occasionally worse than the latter.  So that may account for
> the greater availability and consequently lower price.
> 

I have owned a Stanza since 82 ( yes, I bought a first year car ) and am
still completely pleased with it.  It has already turned 50 and is still
running like it just got off the line.  My criteria when I bought it was:
A car with good power ( it has ), good room ( hatchback is excellent ),
fits both the wife ( 5'2'' ) and me ( 6' ) comfortably, LOW maintenance
( record to follow ), and good mileage.  The lucky thing is all this comes
wrapped in a fairly attractive body ( its not a box-on-a-box ).  Maintenance:
It has been smacked in the rear ( by a station wagon! ) and smacked in the
front ( by a van! ) and you would never know by its handling or looks.
Of course it helps to know where to get good body work :-) .  Really,
a very solid frame, excellent robot welding job.  In the realm of high-perf.
I should probably stop dusting the occassional "hot rod" on the street.
I'm not saying my Stanza puts away Corvette's but as for most street stuff...
Still, my occasional red-line tendencies may have taken a toll on it.  I
have replaced the head gasket once, but according to other Stanza owners,
it was me, not the car.  I honestly don't remember any other service than
routine checkup.  All things considered, I would recommend the Stanza as
a car that fits your posted criterion.  If you or anyone else have questions,
mail, mail, mail'em in.
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Do not walk in front of me,
   I may step on your heel.                                  Howard C. Simonson
     Do not walk behind me,          ...{dragon,hplabs,ihnp4,nsc}!amdahl!howard
        I may stop abruptly.
          Just walk beside me, and be wary of sharp turns.  --  HamuS

[ Opinion? What opinion.  I think you have the wrong guy... ]