jeff@oblio.UUCP (Jeff Buchanan) (02/11/85)
This is in response to a letter I got in mail from Art Platz. I can't reply in mail so I'm putting it on the net. > > I agree with you that a big block out performs a small block. I just argue the statement the if you put the same amount of money in you will get better performance. Have you looked at big block part prices lately? My friend is in the process of building one. With the money he put in I could have built 2 good street performers! I am a small block fan but I do know about big blocks in fact if my 350 ever blows up I'll build a 427 for my 69' camaro-RS. Art Paltz St. Joseph's University Phila. Pa. 19131 P.S. You want to talk about a lack of performance cars. Phila. has none!! That is why I go home on the weekends to Edison N.J. Come back with any comments directly through the reply rather than follow up! > > My response: > Dear Art, Thanks for the response. Big block or small block, I must say I really like your attitude about hot cars! It's so refreshing to hear from some- one who thinks that a 170 hp turbo 4- banger is not the ultimate street car. I can really identify with a guy like you. I can't really prove or disprove my assertion that if one has a certain fixed amount of cash, he can get more HP by paying a little more and buying a big block and spending little or no extra money on it compared to buying a small block, buying a roller cam, port the heads, balance, clearance the bottom end, buy 12-1 pistons, tunnel ram, etc. I'm sure that your friend who is building up the big block is spending twice what a good running small block would cost. But if you were to take his motor and put it on a dyno, and take the "good running small block" and put it on the dyno, are you saying they would produce the same horsepower? You asked if I've priced big block parts lately. As a matter of fact I have: $2468 for an L-88 short block, I don't know what a set of open chambered heads cost. And that is list price. Anyone with a tax resale number can get one for jobber, about $2000. Have you priced small block parts lately? THey aren't cheap either! Theoretically, you could be right if there was a big enough price difference. But think about this: how much would it cost to buy, say, an LT-1 engine assembly from Chevrolet, modify it to produce 530 HP? If the price is more than about $3000, then I rest my case because that is about what an open chambered 4-bolt main 454 costs (excluding bolt-ons like distributor cause they are the same for big or small block). Such a 454 will produce 530 HP right out of the shipping crate for about $3000 (iron heads). I honestly don't think you can get a small block to do that for $3000 assuming you start with a brand new out of the crate small block. I'm glad to hear street racing is alive and well in Philly. Sure wish it was here in San Jose! Jeff Buchanan
avie@cmu-cs-wb1.ARPA (Avadis Tevanian) (02/14/85)
For a mere $2100 you can walk down to your favorite Chevy dealer and order a brand new LS-7 from the factory (complete except for carb, alternator, and stuff like that). The LS-7 is a 454 with 12.6:1 pistons, a wild cam, and all the heavy duty parts (4-bolt, awesome push-rods, etc), unfortunately it doesn't come with aluminum heads, but what do you want for $2100. Out of the crate, you are guaranteed 465 hp, but engine builders with dyno's will tell you they usually run a bit higher than that. Buying one is somewhat amusing, it comes in a crate with a tag reading: "Warning: use only 100+ octane fuel" If you want one, order early, it took us about 4 months to wait for delivery. Avie Tevanian
hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie) (02/19/85)
It's great to hear from some Chevy fans after hearing all of this foreign
car crap. I have a Corvette with a tri-power 427 and I've really done a
few numbers on Porsche and BMW drivers.
I obviously favor the big block, but not just for ultimate HP potential.
It can be built to be streetable and yet be a screamer when you stand on it.
The small block has to be built with one goal or the the other in mind.
In other words a 500HP Mouse is screaming while a 500HP Rat is loafing.
Rei Shinozuka
ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!hkr4627
p.s. The tripower is a little tricky to get in synch but not as bad as
its been reputed. And I get about 14 mpg--up a few from my 4 barrel.
All in all, a smooth performer.hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie) (02/20/85)
Emissions can be clumsy to get in line, except that most of the mountain motors of which we speak come from the 60's and early 70's. It's usually not too difficult to lean the mixture down and throttle down the idle speed until the car squeaks through. Otherwise, most states have a gas station inspection and giving the guy a few bucks will usually set things right. It's true that no 427 will ever get great milage or emissions, but I don't consider these the most important parameters in balancing automobile worthiness. I find price to be a far more realistic method of comparing cars and their engines. After all, who cares how many miles per gallon a $50K Porsche will get? It's not exactly an economy cruiser. I would guess that for about $10K, one could build a Corvette that would whup the hides off just about anything on the road. When you consider building a $50K 'Vette (without super sound, leather seats or gold-plated accoutrements), the mind boggles! Rei Shinozuka ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!hkr4627 p.s. I think the Fiero might be a very cool thing to pump a few thousand into hopping up
haapanen@watdcsu.UUCP (Tom Haapanen [DCS]) (02/21/85)
In article <258@oblio.UUCP> jeff@oblio.UUCP (Jeff Buchanan) writes: >Thanks for the response. Big block or small block, I must say I really >like your attitude about hot cars! It's so refreshing to hear from some- >one who thinks that a 170 hp turbo 4- banger is not the ultimate >street car. I can really identify with a guy like you. I can't really identify with a guy like you, Jeff. Gimme a break! I have never said that I think a 170 hp turbo 4-banger is the ultimate street car. However, do you think a 60's rat-motor 'vette is the ultimate? I hope not. I expect both of us have our ideal set somewhere in the Porsche 959/Ferrari GTO land. So what? Well, this leaves us with the question of where to compromise when our financial resources run out. If I had to compromise, I'd like to keep a nice handling and a good cockpit as opposed to the raw power. I believe that you, Jeff, would choose otherwise. But even a nice turbo 4-banger like the 944 engine is not that bad, is it? In any case, I (and several other people in net.auto) believe that the most fun is to be had not by street racing rat motors and injected hemis but by driving small, nimble cars with reasonable engines (here again, we go our separate ways --- I'm sure 100 hp is not reasonable to you) but with a lot of emphasis on handling and maneuverability. Like a Fiero (140 hp with a V6). Like a GTI (100 hp). Like a CRX (85 hp I think). These little cars are a h*ll of a lot of fun, even if they do get blown off the road at the lights by big V8s. However, you can't take your GTO Judge or '68 Corvette to a Solo II contest either without being blown off the course by little Mini Cooper S's... I can live without a V8 --- can you? \tom haapanen watmath!watdcsu!haapanen Don't cry, don't do anything No lies, back in the government No tears, party time is here again President Gas is up for president (c) Psychedelic Furs, 1982
hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie) (02/23/85)
Tom: If you think that no American car can handle, then YOU should give ME a break. The Shelby Cobras and GT350s as well as the properly set up (from the factory) Vette were all good handlers. The Vette, especially did well in the big block days against all comers, and that's without the huge megabuck factory backing. I remember in 1978 (or thereabouts), R&T (or C&D or whatever) tested the 1978 Vette and recorded the highest slalom speed ever tested, yes, better than the Porsche 930 and Ferraris. That's the OLD 1963-vintage chasssis and all. I think that 1960's vintage musclecars are classics--and some of them happen to go very quickly indeed. Just goes to show that they could do things right in the old days... Rei SHinozuka ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!hkr4627 p.s. i got nothing against the econoGTs, but you just see too many of them on the road today. theyre a plague.
shelby@rtech.ARPA (Shelby Thornton) (02/27/85)
> For a mere $2100 you can walk down to your favorite Chevy dealer and order a > brand new LS-7 from the factory (complete except for carb, alternator, and > stuff like that). The LS-7 is a 454 with 12.6:1 pistons, a wild cam, and > all the heavy duty parts (4-bolt, awesome push-rods, etc), unfortunately it > doesn't come with aluminum heads, but what do you want for $2100. > > Out of the crate, you are guaranteed 465 hp, but engine builders with dyno's > will tell you they usually run a bit higher than that. > > Buying one is somewhat amusing, it comes in a crate with a tag reading: > > "Warning: use only 100+ octane fuel" > > If you want one, order early, it took us about 4 months to wait for delivery. > > Avie Tevanian My roommate and I have two (we paid only $1950 for each, and got them immediately). The problem with these motors is that they must be torn down and inspected thoroughly. They have been known to come with rod bolts missing or lying in the pan, loose mains, etc... Also, I find the term "wild cam" for LS-7 grind absurd. That's what I consider a street grind. The only unstreetable aspect of the motor is the compression. Unfortunately, Cheverolets need the compression to produce horsepower. If you've got a readily available supply of SoCal this isn't a problem. Pound for pound, I'll take Chrysler motors over Chevrolets every time (Big Block or Small Block), they don't need the compression to produce the same horsepower, and they always produce more torque (which is the dominating factor in street racing). Shelby Thornton Relational Technology