jeff@oblio.UUCP (Jeff Buchanan) (03/14/85)
> $100,000 Lambrogini was inferior in the handling department (.86 g's > vs .89 g's on the skidpad, the best measure of road holding ability, > re: Road & Track magazine). Jeff, sometimes I wonder if you're for real. If you put the 84 vette on a race track, that .89 means something. If you put that vette on a normal street, with the associated terrain differences (pot holes, uneven pavement), that number becomes VERY misleading. If you put the vette on the street (where it belongs), the Porche will out handle it on 9 out of 10 roads. The bump steer on the vette is horrible, whereas the Porche's is excellent. What that means is that if the vette hits a bump in a turn, the vette suspension panics. The 84 vette is a very good car, but don't be selective and incomplete about your facts. Shelby Thornton Relational Technology Shelby, if I said the sky was blue, you would automatically call me a liar. Have you ever driven ANY of the cars you pretend to be an expert on? Are you aware that when the '84 Corvette was released in March '84 every major car magazine compared it to various types of Porsches and proclaimed the Vette to be superior in handling? The problem you have is that I give a hard analytical fact such as a skidpad number, and since the fact is to specific to refute, you can only say something vague, unspecific, and meaningless, like "on 9 out of 10 roads the Porcshe will out handle the Vette." Which Porsche? Which 9 out of 10 roads? Your assertion is so general (i.e. you've really said nothing) that you can't be proved right or wrong! Your comment about bump steer isn't vague, but who knows if it is correct. If you are saying that on the street, the Corvette handles better when you are not going over bumps and potholes and the Porsche handles better when you are, fine. That means that 99% of the time the Corvette handles better. Jeff
klein@ucbcad.UUCP (03/18/85)
Definitely true that skid pad numbers don't mean everything. It's the fine tuning of the suspension (all elements of it) that really makes a care a good handling one. I don't know what either Jeff or Shelby mean by "handling" but I imply overall good traction and control over any reasonable road under any reasonable conditions. Thus "good handling" *IS* a vague concept. We can try to give it a number but we'll always be arguing the trees and forgetting the forest. If you're driving only on a race track with no potholes, expansion joints, or random bumps, do not have to make quick turns, and don't have to contend with traffic, you can go ahead and only use skid pad numbers for evaluating handling. -- -Mike Klein ...!ucbvax!ucbmerlin:klein (UUCP) klein%ucbmerlin@berkeley (ARPA)
seifert@mako.UUCP (Snoopy) (03/20/85)
> If you are saying that on the street, the Corvette handles >better when you are not going over bumps and potholes and the Porsche >handles better when you are, fine. That means that 99% of the time >the Corvette handles better. > Jeff Just where do you live that has these beautiful glass-smooth roads? Most parts of the real world has fairly rotten roads. Even here in the beautiful northwest far from the land of salt and freeze-thaw cycles there are a few bumps and such. (about 1/10000th as many as the midwest, but there are a few if you look real hard :-) ) What do you do when you're cornering at 10/10ths and you hit a Bott's dot? _____ |___| the Bavarian Beagle _|___|_ Snoopy \_____/ tektronix!mako!seifert \___/ If God had intended Man to Smoke, He would have set him on Fire. -the fortune AI project
pal@crystal.UUCP (03/21/85)
On the subject of skidpad numbers vs. handling: The April Car & Driver has a comment from a Daimler-Benz tech type to the effect that (paraphrased) "We do not put much emphasis on high skidpad numbers. The only time a driver creates a lateral acceleration of 0.85g on a public road is just before a crash." Anil Pal U. of Wisconsin - Madison
hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie) (03/21/85)
Bump Steer and the Corvette Bump steer, at least on the old Vettes, is indeed pretty bad. But bump steer is not really a handling problem fundamental to a car's design. Rather, it is one of those variables which may be programmed into the car's existing suspension, much the same as spring stiffness. Bump steer is caused by the relation of the tie rods to the A-arms. If the tie rods travel with the suspension, there is little bump steer. If suspension travel also affect tie rod geometry, then steering will be altered by the suspension travel. The trick to fix this is to relocate the end links of the tie rods so that suspension travel will not affect steering geometry. For the Vette, this means lowering the rods a couple of inches, or picking up a link from Dick Guldstrand Engineering for about 30 bucks. Why did GM program bump steer into the Vette suspension? They figured the car would handle more "safely." (signed) Speed Racer