norman@cogsci.ucsd.EDU (Donald A Norman-UCSD Cog Sci Dept) (01/04/89)
In an article in this news distribution, it was stated that: > ... I saw a setup awhile back at UCSD that did speach >recognition using neural networks (P.D.P. for you purists). Although I >never actually saw it run (only graphics output), it was supposed to be >able to 'decode' sentences in roughly 1/4 real time. Presumably, this >was with ideal conditions, short sentences, etc. Sorry, not true.. The work that is being referred to is probably that of Jeff Elman (who has worked with David Zipser and Jay McClelland). Both Elman and Zipser are faculty in UCSD's new Department of Cognitive Science. McClelland is faculty at Carnegie-Mellon. Yes, the work is exciting and may lead to great progress someday. But we are very far from speech recognition of connected speech. Note that more than simple decoding of sound waves is required: a knowledge of the context, semantics, pragmatics, etc., will be required. Too many speech strings are ambiguous without this information. In fact, not even the boundaries between words can be detected without knowing the intended meaning. (My favorite example because it is a real one that once happened to me is to think of the distinction between the sounds of the phrases "new display" and "nudist play": the acoustical waveforms can be identical.) The Elman et al work is very important. But it does NOT do real speech processing. Nor do they claim that it does. Don Norman Donald A. Norman [ danorman@ucsd.edu BITNET: danorman@ucsd ] Department of Cognitive Science C-015 University of California, San Diego La Jolla, California 92093 USA UNIX: {gatech,rutgers,ucbvax,uunet}!ucsd!danorman [e-mail paths often fail: please give postal address and all e-mail addresses.]
csm@violet.berkeley.edu (01/05/89)
In article <679@cogsci.ucsd.EDU> norman@cogsci.UUCP (Donald A Norman-UCSD Cog Sci Dept) writes: >... "new display" and "nudist play" ... In southern CA people often ask: "Djagotoessee?" a single word apparently meaning "Did you matriculate at the University of Southern California?". Brad Sherman (bks@ALFA.berkeley.edu)
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (01/05/89)
From article <18726@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, by csm@violet.berkeley.edu:
" In article <679@cogsci.ucsd.EDU> norman@cogsci.UUCP (Donald A Norman-UCSD Cog Sci Dept) writes:
" >... "new display" and "nudist play" ...
"
" In southern CA people often ask:
" "Djagotoessee?"
Similarly, "Judas get up?" = Did you just get up?.
It may be that the spectra of "new display" and "nudist play" can appear
essentially identical, but for many, the "d" part of "nudist" is
articulated differently (very short) and the diphthong of "new" is
appreciably longer than that of "nu".
These kinds of phonetic details are at least partially law-like and
predictable. A substantial amount of work has been done to understand
them in the last century (but much earlier in India). It's
disappointing that some (most?) contemporary work in speech recognition
seems innocent of this body of scholarship. I guess the idea is that
computation can substitute for understanding. Maybe. I have my doubts.
Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edulandman%hanami@Sun.COM (Howard A. Landman) (01/06/89)
In article <2934@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: >the diphthong of "new" is appreciably longer than that of "nu". Huh? There *IS* *NO* dipthong in "new" or "nu", in any dialect of English that I know. Did you perhaps just mean vowel? Howard A. Landman landman@hanami.sun.com
david@beowulf.JPL.NASA.GOV (David Smyth) (01/06/89)
landman@sun.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) writes: -lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: ->the diphthong of "new" is appreciably longer than that of "nu". - -Huh? There *IS* *NO* dipthong in "new" or "nu", in any dialect of English -that I know. Did you perhaps just mean vowel? Sorry, Howard, but just because `new' is not pronounced with a dipthong in Mountain View doesn't mean it never is. In fact, the pronunciation given in Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, 1987, shows `new' pronouned with a dipthong. Anyway, its just being used as an example. Lighten up.
merrill@bucasb (John Merrill) (01/07/89)
In article <84021@sun.uucp>, landman%hanami (Howard A. Landman) writes: >In article <2934@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: >>the diphthong of "new" is appreciably longer than that of "nu". > >Huh? There *IS* *NO* dipthong in "new" or "nu", in any dialect of English >that I know. Did you perhaps just mean vowel? No, he meant dipthong. There are dialects of English in which the word "new" is clearly pronounced "n[y]u", while the Greek letter "nu" is not. I am not *aware* of a difference between the vowels in my own idiolect, and I percieve them both as pure---at least, insofar as any speaker of Midwestern American English can be said to have a pure vowel in any word she speaks. Greg, is your claim based on phonetic measurements, and, if so, what dialect did the speaker(s) use? (Follow-ups to sci.lang, please; this is way far afield from NeXT boxes, or even cognitive engineering.) -- John Merrill | ARPA: merrill@bucasb.bu.edu Center for Adaptive Systems | 111 Cummington Street | Boston, Mass. 02215 | Phone: (617) 353-5765
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (01/07/89)
From article <600105990.19551@bucasb.bu.edu>, by merrill@bucasb (John Merrill):
>In article <2934@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes:
" >>the diphthong of "new" is appreciably longer than that of "nu".
" >
" >Huh? There *IS* *NO* dipthong in "new" or "nu", in any dialect of English
" >that I know. Did you perhaps just mean vowel?
"
" No, he meant dipthong. There are dialects of English in which the
" word "new" is clearly pronounced "n[y]u", while the Greek letter "nu"
" is not.
"
" I am not *aware* of a difference between the vowels in my own
" idiolect, and I percieve them both as pure---at least, insofar as any
" speaker of Midwestern American English can be said to have a pure
" vowel in any word she speaks. Greg, is your claim based on phonetic
" measurements, and, if so, what dialect did the speaker(s) use?
I was referring to lax-u + w combination as a diphthong. It is a plain
vowel for some people. A in-glided version is another possibility. The
matter seems completely tangential to the question of whether "nudist
play" and "new display" may be pronounced the same. But I suppose I
could find some published measurements, if anybody really cares. A
likely source would be the monograph on Am. English pronunciation by
Ilse Lehiste and Gordon Peterson (whose title I can't remember now).
" (Follow-ups to sci.lang, please; this is way far afield from NeXT
" boxes, or even cognitive engineering.)
Right, except I thought I ought to reply to your question, first.
Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu