watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson) (02/04/89)
[eat me!] > Needless to say I was VERY pissed off at the .... person. He seemed to > think that the computer was not even worth turning on to show as the demo > programs and apps were just soooo unstable. Why the heck is it off? What are they using it for anyway? The ultimate high tech paper weight? When we got our first NeXT, I crash the thing in a few seconds. But you quickly learn what not to do. Reminds me of the old joke about the patient telling the doctor "it hurts when I do this (demonstrating)", and the doctor says "then don't do that." Now I can go all day without crashing it. The demos are showy, but not very useful. It reminds me of our Suns five years ago. Anybody else get a picture of an "ardwolf" when you ask the dictionary to look up "zymurgy". -- John S. Watson, Civil Servent from Hell ARPA: watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center UUCP: ...!ames!watson Any opinions expressed herein are, like, solely the responsibility of the, like, author and do not, like, represent the opinions of NASA or the U.S. Government.
jbn@glacier.STANFORD.EDU (John B. Nagle) (02/05/89)
In article <21404@ames.arc.nasa.gov> watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson) writes: >When we got our first NeXT, I crash the thing in a few seconds. >But you quickly learn what not to do. Reminds me of the old joke about >the patient telling the doctor "it hurts when I do this (demonstrating)", >and the doctor says "then don't do that." >Now I can go all day without crashing it. Perhaps each NeXT should come with a copy of "The Frozen Keyboard - Living with Bad Software" (Tab Books, 1988). John Nagle
dls@mace.cc.purdue.edu (David L Stevens) (02/05/89)
I've crashed my NeXT 3 times since I got it a few weeks ago, but for pre-release software, I think it's great. I'd rather have NeXT 0.8 than any of its current "production" competitors. I've seen bad (I mean really awful) software in every vendor release I've seen, and all are bigger players with more money and time invested than NeXT. What's the point of the NeXT-bashing here? Are you guys disappointed that it isn't something from the Land of Oz? Real steps forward come with bugs. Big deal. If you don't want a NeXT, don't buy one; it'll leave more for the realists in the world... -- +-DLS (dls@mace.cc.purdue.edu)
NMKATZ@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Nicholas M. Katz) (02/05/89)
>Anybody else get a picture of an "ardwolf" when you ask the dictionary >to look up "zymurgy". > >-- >John S. Watson, Civil Servent from Hell ARPA: watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov Not only do I get a picture of an aardwolf, but when I scroll through the meani ng of "zymurgy" I get all the "a" words through "abominable snowman". So it is only fair that I get the attached pictures as well, I guess. Nick Katz
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (02/06/89)
> I've crashed my NeXT 3 times since I got it a few weeks ago, but for >pre-release software, I think it's great. I'd rather have NeXT 0.8 than any of >its current "production" competitors. > I've seen bad (I mean really awful) software in every vendor release >I've seen, and all are bigger players with more money and time invested than >NeXT. What's the point of the NeXT-bashing here? Are you guys disappointed that >it isn't something from the Land of Oz? I sat at a NeXt for several hours and ran lots of source code through its C compilers, and ran the programs. I tried various benchmarks, Unix utilities, games, and some big scientific calculations. It compiled them all and ran them just fine. Not one crash or even bug (and only one missing include file - easily added). As a generic Unix box it seems fine - and is quite peppy. It bogged down seriously when I tried their proprietary stuff. Perhaps that stuff is written using a bad compiler or a bad programming methodology. Or, hopefully, just "beta".
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (02/07/89)
Gee if U of M thinks their new NeXT mahcine is so horrible, we'll gladly take it off of their hands (we'll even pay the postage). All donations cheefully accepted! :-) I can't imgaine any mahcine so awful that I wouldn't even bother to switch it on ... except for a VIC-20, perhaps. One has to cut a little slack, considering that the current O/S is a 0.8 beta release. Being a bug hunter is part of the payback for the privilege of getting a cube early on to play with. I really suspect that the cube-guardian at U of M was making up the bug story to discourage too many prying hands from fondling what he wanted to squirrel away for his and only his use. Some people have a most unfortunate attitude. We'd love to have a cube here, but we're just not a big enough institution to be in the "in" crowd yet. --Bill
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (02/08/89)
>Not only do I get a picture of an aardwolf, but when I scroll through the meani >ng of "zymurgy" I get all the "a" words through "abominable snowman". So it is >only fair that I get the attached pictures as well, I guess. > Nick Katz I think the aardwolf is really cute. Not nearly as ugly as a hyena. On the other hand, a funny thing happened on the way to the aardwolf. Somehow, we don't know how, I started the Next on the task of, presumably, indexing the entire Webster. At any rate it chugged away on its disks (both) for several minutes before we tried to kill it. But I couldn't kill it at all from the keyboard. Another person logged in over the Ethernet as root and killed my process - which immediately put up a note to that effect - but continued whirring for two minutes (cleaning up the disk?). What happened, and is there any easier way to stop it from doing this? Has anybody figured out why starting up the special NeXt programs is so slow, when ordinary Unix functions and running the neat programs is quite peppy? Doug McDonald
cplai@daisy.UUCP (Chung-Pang Lai) (02/09/89)
In article <1491@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes:
]
]I can't imgaine any mahcine so awful that I wouldn't even bother to
]switch it on ... except for a VIC-20, perhaps. One has to cut a
]little slack, considering that the current O/S is a 0.8 beta
]release. Being a bug hunter is part of the payback for the
]privilege of getting a cube early on to play with.
]
I cannot imagine why the people in NExT granted the beta-site privilege
to U of M in the first place. Beta-site testings impose on the company
a very expensive support team to respond to bug reports. The whole
engineering team is switch to interrupt driven mode to do bug fixes.
The faster the response, the short the beta-site cycle and hence cheaper
to operate. A tight bug fix cycle is required and hence enthusiastic users
are essential.
The attitude in U of M disqualifies them to be a beta-site. If they expect
a 100% reliable machine, they should wait for the first production
release. It is a lose-lose situation. NExT does not get the feed-back
or help they anticipate. U of M does not get the machine they expect.
Based on what I read from this newsgroup, there are far more deserving
beta-site users who did not get such privilege. And yet the NExT box
is collecting dust in U of M. What a shame!
The people in NExT should re-evaluate their beta-site qualifying criteria!
One easy way to judge is the amount of feedback from the beta-site. If
there is no feedback, a wrong choice was made! Another criterion is this
newsgroup, the people in this newsgroup are at the least interested and
motivated, unlike the people in U of M!
--
.signature under construction ...
{pyramid, osu-cis, uunet, killer}!daisy!cplai C.P. Lai
cplai%daisy.UUCP@uunet.UU.NET cplai%daisy@killer.DALLAS.TX.USA
Daisy Systems Corp, 700B Middlefield Road, Mtn View CA 94039. (415)960-6961louie@haven.umd.edu (Louis Mamakos) (02/09/89)
In article <2646@daisy.UUCP> cplai@daisy.UUCP (Chung-Pang Lai) writes: > >The attitude in U of M disqualifies them to be a beta-site. If they expect >a 100% reliable machine, they should wait for the first production >release. It is a lose-lose situation. NExT does not get the feed-back >or help they anticipate. U of M does not get the machine they expect. I don't have have the first article of this thread floating around anymore, but please note that "U of M" doesn't refer to The University of Maryland. We use and break our 0.8 units quite often. Of course, unless this source code issue is resolved, it may make little difference as the campus population as a whole may never see any in our workstations labs. I invite *anyone* in the NeXT organization to contact me with a definitive position on source code. Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH Internet: louie@TRANTOR.UMD.EDU University of Maryland, Computer Science Center - Systems Programming -- Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH Internet: louie@TRANTOR.UMD.EDU University of Maryland, Computer Science Center - Systems Programming
jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) (02/11/89)
In article <3069@haven.umd.edu>, louie@haven.umd.edu (Louis Mamakos) writes: > In article <2646@daisy.UUCP> cplai@daisy.UUCP (Chung-Pang Lai) writes: > > > >The attitude in U of M disqualifies them to be a beta-site. If they expect > >a 100% reliable machine, they should wait for the first production > >release. It is a lose-lose situation. NExT does not get the feed-back > >or help they anticipate. U of M does not get the machine they expect. > > I don't have have the first article of this thread floating around anymore, > but please note that "U of M" doesn't refer to The University of Maryland. > We use and break our 0.8 units quite often. University of Minnesota I think. The original poster was a visiting student apparently. No one from the University of Maryland (to my knowledge) has complained about the NeXT! In fact I was there when the machines were unpacked and brought up on the network and both of them worked just fine! No unexplained crashes. No bizarre behaviors. Everything seemed clean and *very* Unix-like (at least in the time that I saw the machines). Here's the original article that started this flame war (please note the original poster's address): Path: potomac!sundc!seismo!uunet!lll-winken!xanth!nic.MR.NET!umn-cs!jayrajan From: jayrajan@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Vijay Rajan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next Subject: NeXT - Not worth the effort (yet)? Message-ID: <11076@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU> Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis I am visiting the US from Australia for a short time and I was very eager to see the NeXT machine before I return as I gather it may be some time before NeXT ship to overseas unis, especially Australia. I went to the microcomputer centre here at the U of M and asked to see their new NeXT which was hidden away in a back room. The guy in charge refused to let me see it run, he showed me the computer but told me it took ages (5-6 min) to boot and crashed at every given opportunity, only the compilers were a bit more stable and they looked liked compiling on any unix machine. Needless to say I was VERY pissed off at the .... person. He seemed to think that the computer was not even worth turning on to show as the demo programs and apps were just soooo unstable. . . etc etc etc . . Malcolm Pradhan (Hate this Minnesotan winter) -- John T. Nelson UUCP: sun!sundc!potomac!jtn Advanced Decision Systems Internet: jtn@potomac.ads.com 1500 Wilson Blvd #512; Arlington, VA 22209-2401 (703) 243-1611 "The only thing more useless than a Faberge' egg is a coffee table picture book about Faberge' eggs"
mike@shogun.cc.umich.edu (Michael Nowak) (02/15/89)
In article <1491@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: > >Gee if U of M thinks their new NeXT mahcine is so horrible, we'll >gladly take it off of their hands (we'll even pay the postage). >All donations cheefully accepted! :-) This is University of Minnesota, not University of Michigan, right? I'm going crazy reading this thread. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Nowak ...mailrus!shogun!mike Workstation Consultant mike@shogun.cc.umich.edu U of M Computing Center User Services Mike_Nowak@um.cc.umich.edu ...working for but in no way representing the University of Michigan...
kalpin@pneuma.SRC.Honeywell.COM (Scott Kalpin) (02/18/89)
I thought it was the University of Montana.
I'm embarrassed being from Minnesota. It is probably one lazy arm-chair
computer administrator that is responsible for this endless flaming of the
UofM.
Scott L. Kalpin Honeywell, S&RC MN65-2100
ARPA : kalpin@src.honeywell.com 3660 Technology Drive
PHONE: (612) 782-7207 Minneapolis, MN 55418