ajb@cs.brown.edu (04/12/89)
comp.sys.next NeXT Digest
Volume 1 Issue 4
Compiled at Brown University from the Bitnet NeXT-L List
Today's Subjects:
Next Office
Info on NEXT
NeXT and TeX
voice recognition software
voice recognition software
Re: Vol 1 Issue 46 -- NeXT-L Digest
Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Games and stuff on Next-L
Games on the NeXT
Argh! Argh!
RE: Argh! Argh!
Response to loyal list'er
? Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 89 11:40:33 EDT
From: Faustino Cantu Botello <PL191309@TECMTYVM>
Subject: Next Office
I'm interested in some information about the Next-L but i would like to
write to the central office of Next Corporation, can somebody tell me
the adress and phone number of the offices?
Thank you
Facabo
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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 89 16:41:00 N
From: FISICA@ASTRPD.INFN.IT
Subject: Info on NEXT
Dear Sir/Madam,
an american friend of mine gave me your address to get infos about the
NEXT computer. This message comes from Italy.
Several italian scientific institutioins are quite interesting in
getting a NEXT machine. In particular, I am the vice-director of the
Astrophysics Sector of the International School for Advanced Studies
of Trieste; the School is also interested in computing and in new
machines (this because I read that the NEXT will be sold only to
scientific institutions).
I would be very gratefull if you could let me have any info, in
particular how to buy a NEXT. All we know here is what appeared in an
isuue of Byte of few months ago.
Thanks for help/info.
Max Calvani
SISSA-ISAS
Strada Costiera 11
34014 Miramare (Trieste) - Italy
bitnet: fisica%astrpd.infn.it@icineca 2.bitnet
SPAN: 39003::fisica
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 7 Mar 89 17:44:00 N
From: FISICA@ASTRPD.INFN.IT
Subject: NeXT and TeX
In issue 43 of NeXT-l several people were complaining about TeX fonts
to be used with NeXT.
Now, an enhancement to TeX (well, actually to Latex) has been done by
Mario Wolczko, Dept. Computer Science, The University, Manchester M13 9PL,UK.
It is called Pslatex. It may be obtained for free by the tex archive
at: archive-server@sun.soe.clarkson.edu.
Just send the following two-lines message:
PATH Your-e-mail-return-address
SEND LATEX-STYLE PSLATEX.SHAR
For those who have access to SPAN, it may also be copied from:
39003::dua0:[tex.latex-style]pslatex.shar
(where another TeX archive is kept).
Pslatex uses, when available, resident Postscript fonts. When not (like
for math symbols) it uses ordinary tex fonts.
Max Calvani
(from Italy, hoping to succeed in getting a Next over here!)
bitnet: fisica%astrpd.infn.it@icineca2.bitnet
SPAN : 39003::fisica
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 89 14:44:19 CST
From: HAUSAM@UIUCVMD
Subject: voice recognition software
Does anyone know specific information about voice recognition software
for the NeXT and its availability? I had heard from somewhere that software
had been developed for this application, I believe making use of the DSP
processor. I think this was supposed to have been developed at Carnegie
Mellon University. I would appreciate receiving any information about this
that anyone might have, either via the list or by direct email. Thanks.
Robert Hausam
College of Medicine
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 89 11:38:55 EST
From: John Neubert <U1DF1@WVNVM>
Subject: voice recognition software
In-Reply-To: Message of 03/07/89 at 14:44:19 from HAUSAM@UIUCVMD
I heard the same "rumor" when the NeXT was first announced.
CMU does have a history of voice (speech) recognition research
(under Dr. Raj Reddy and others). I have heard nothing about
the rumor for months. If you are aware of the promises of
voice recognition since the early 1970s (Scope Electronics,
Threshold Technology, Heuristics, Centigram, Dialog -- all of whom
are belly up now -- except Centigram, which now does voice mail
type applications) you must realize that the promise has still
not been realized -- sort of the way AI that would do just about
anything was predicted in the 1960s to be only 5 - 10 years
away by the small group of "clergy" then at MIT. Don't get me
wrong, I believe strongly that both will eventually happen;
it's just a lot more complicated than the researchers (most)
wish to admit.
I don't know about CMU's current research -- haven't been really
delving deeply into the field since 1981. However, I see you
are in the medical field. You may be aware of the semi-voice
recognition product that allows doctors to communicate prescriptions,
etc, by voice (assuming that a doctor's voice is clearer than his/her
writing ;-) ). Can't remember who developed the product. Read in
some journal that it's now in some hospitals.
If you seek products that perhaps help in such as speech pathology,
try a small company in Denton, TX, called Scott Instruments. They
have been used a number of places for such. Their founder, Brian
Scott, was a speech researcher at UT (I think) -- unlike many other
firms where the people are CS or EE types. Scott supposedly has
a connected speech technology product.
There is a magazine, called "Speech" I think, and a yearly conference
put on by the publishers of the journal.
Kurzweil promised a voice recognition typewriter last year or the
year before. It probably got them a lot of funding and PR, but as
far as I know nothing resulted. Soooo, believe it when you see
(or hear) it.
Good luck.
John Neubert u1df1@wvnvm (u1df1@wvnvm.wvnet.edu)
Coordinator, Planning & Analysis
WVNET (West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing)
Morgantown, WV
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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 89 10:18:09 EDT
From: Norbert Mueller <K360171@AEARN>
Subject: Re: Vol 1 Issue 46 -- NeXT-L Digest
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 17 Mar 89 21:48:49 EST from <ATUL@BROWNVM>
Rumours say some NeXTs will be available in Europe in July.
For universities only and at a price 2.5 times the U.S. price and
unsupported.
Sorry that's all I know as it was discussed on a recent Macintosh user's
meeting - so far I do not know who's distributing it.
Norbert Mueller
Institute of Chemistry
Johannes Kepler University
A-4040 LINZ
AUSTRIA
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From @BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU:NEXT-L@BROWNVM.BITNET Mon Apr 10 21:56:32 1989
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 89 18:00:42 EDT
From: Michael Nosal <ST502042@BROWNVM>
Subject: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Everyone out there looking for alternatives to the NeXT is barking up
the wrong tree. In short, THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES TO THE NeXT!!!
Why? I'll explain.
People are too MIPS-oriented and can't think clearly. As has been said before,
the *REAL* power of the machine is not how many MIPS, or MFLOPS, or any
xxxstones rating, but rather the overall seamless integration of the
entire system.
What NeXT has given us is a brand-new tool, unlike any we have ever had for
spreading the use of computers to LESS and LESS technical applications.
Take the example from the Macintosh world. When it came out, it was slow and
not as powerful as some other PC-class machines of the time. But it had many
of the new features that we take for granted now. How many businesses did
ANY desktop pub. before the Mac? Now ask how many consider their DTP to be
"essential" to their business. How did they *ever* get along without it?
Now we must ask "What applications would *REALLY* take advantage of the
NeXT?" Certainly not more spreadsheets or accounting packages.
How about access for the handicapped (a MUCH overlooked area) ?
How about TRUE hypermedia? (Not hacked-up Hypercard stacks) I'd LOVE to punch
in some old textbooks and use the graphics and sound to *really* explain some
concepts. (Anyone who has seen "The Mechanical Universe" can appreciate that)
* How about Applications in the Classics, English, or History? Strategy
analysis of famous battles? Exploring the ancient Egyptian society?
David Macaulay's (sp?) books PYRAMID, CATHEDRAL, CASTLE? The NeXT would
really be useful in teaching these concepts.
The point is, given the HUGE storage space on the Optical Disk, the fantastic
sound capability (CD's sound pretty Damn good, don't they?) and more than
acceptable graphics (which will eventually be improved into more greyscales,
higher resolution or color), we now have the ability to really get physical
with what we are computing.
(Personally, I'd *love* to see some KILLER games on the NeXT. This has real
possibilities, far beyond ANYTHING you've seen, esp. with the sound!)
No other machine/system out there has everything the NeXT has and nothing
does it as well.
--- Michael Nosal
--- ST502042@brownvm.brown.edu
---
--- "The Paraguay/Beglium Bilateral Waffle Conference 1989"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 10:31:12 MEZ
From: Gerhard Eckel <V4110DAA@AWIUNI11>
Subject: Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Apr 89 18:00:42 EDT from <ST502042@BROWNVM>
This is ridiculous ...
> (Personally, I'd *love* to see some KILLER games on the NeXT. This has real
> possibilities, far beyond ANYTHING you've seen, esp. with the sound!)
-- Gerhard (V4110DAA@AWIUNI11.BITNET)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 09:14:43 est
From: dsill@relay.nswc.navy.mil
Subject: Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Michael Nosal <ST502042%BROWNVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:
[Several comments about new types of applications made feasible by the
NeXT, which I agree are worthwhile and exciting, followed by:]
>(Personally, I'd *love* to see some KILLER games on the NeXT. This has real
>possibilities, far beyond ANYTHING you've seen, esp. with the sound!)
Here I beg to differ in a big way. The Amiga is probably the best
game platform today. Its sound capabilities are not as good as the
NeXT's, but they're certainly adequate for games. The Amiga's
hardware-supported color graphics paint circles around the NeXT's
boring grays. Of course, at under $1000 (for an Amiga 500 w/monitor),
it's far too cheap to be taken seriously. :-)
-Dave (dsill@relay.nswc.navy.mil)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 09:14:43 est
From: dsill@relay.nswc.navy.mil
Subject: Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
Michael Nosal <ST502042%BROWNVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:
[Several comments about new types of applications made feasible by the
NeXT, which I agree are worthwhile and exciting, followed by:]
>(Personally, I'd *love* to see some KILLER games on the NeXT. This has real
>possibilities, far beyond ANYTHING you've seen, esp. with the sound!)
Here I beg to differ in a big way. The Amiga is probably the best
game platform today. Its sound capabilities are not as good as the
NeXT's, but they're certainly adequate for games. The Amiga's
hardware-supported color graphics paint circles around the NeXT's
boring grays. Of course, at under $1000 (for an Amiga 500 w/monitor),
it's far too cheap to be taken seriously. :-)
-Dave (dsill@relay.nswc.navy.mil)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 10:55:00 EST
From: Scott P Leslie <UNCSPL@UNC>
Subject: Re: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
> Michael Nosal <ST502042%BROWNVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:
> [Several comments about new types of applications made feasible by the
> NeXT, which I agree are worthwhile and exciting, followed by:]
>
> >(Personally, I'd *love* to see some KILLER games on the NeXT. This has real
> >possibilities, far beyond ANYTHING you've seen, esp. with the sound!)
>
> Here I beg to differ in a big way. The Amiga is probably the best
> game platform today. Its sound capabilities are not as good as the
> NeXT's, but they're certainly adequate for games. The Amiga's
> hardware-supported color graphics paint circles around the NeXT's
> boring grays. Of course, at under $1000 (for an Amiga 500 w/monitor),
> it's far too cheap to be taken seriously. :-)
>
> -Dave (dsill@relay.nswc.navy.mil)
Not to mention that MIDI capability can easily surpass the processing
power of the NeXT, and it's already available for several computers.
--
Later, Scott P. Leslie (UNCSPL@UNC) Jax
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 10:29:00 CST
From: Scott Hess <SCOTT@GACVAX1>
Subject: Games and stuff on Next-L
I don't know. I would say 10 thousand for a games machine is a bit steep.
Of course, if the toned-down student version comes out that (almost) fixes
that. I do hold with some of the things said in the original article
(sorry, no inserts, already deleted and gone), but some was a bit bad. The
last time I checked, there weren't too many artificially intelligent programs
that can manipulate your data the way you want them to, without you telling
them exactly how to do it. Spreadsheets and kin WILL be needed for an awfully
long time. The small amount of work I've done on "user-friendly" systems
gives me the impression that they are user friendly, but NOT "power-user"
friendly. And I would put most spreadsheets in power-user range.
I've heard that the 10 thousand dollar version for the business person is out.
Is this true? Alas - it should make money, but it will also tend to give the
NeXT a reputation less inclined towards education, I would think. Of course,
it is a flexible machine ...
Scott Hess,
<Scott@gacvax1.bitnet>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 10:39:00 CST
From: arch_ems@gsbacd.uchicago.edu
Subject: Games on the NeXT
Michael Nosal and a string of people have written here re:games for the
NeXT. Having been a game designer for the Apple ][ this issue is close
to my heart, however I hope noone takes this comment in the wrong way:
Why do we care whether or not there are games on the NeXT ???
(1) Whether or not any individual thinks there *should* be games on the
NeXT -- there will be games.
(2) The development of games on any computer is a way of pushing the
machines capabilities to the limits and discovering new ways to do things
that are useful for "non-game" applications.
(3) Where does one draw the line between games and educational programs
which provide a 'game' environment as a motivation to pick up skills or
knowledge?
**********************************
* ARCH_EMS@gsbacd.uchicago.edu *
* Edward Shelton, Analyst
* Edward Shelton, Analyst *
* ARCH Development Corporation *
**********************************
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 14:08:00 EST
From: An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind <SERETNY@HARTFORD>
Subject: Argh! Argh!
<<Note From: Scott P Leslie <UNCSPL@UNC>>
>> Michael Nosal <ST502042%BROWNVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:
>> [Several comments about new types of applications made feasible by the
>> NeXT, which I agree are worthwhile and exciting, followed by:]
>>
>> >(Personally, I'd *love* to see some KILLER games on the NeXT. This has
>> >real possibilities, far beyond ANYTHING you've seen, esp. with the sound!)
>>
>> Here I beg to differ in a big way. The Amiga is probably the best
>> game platform today. Its sound capabilities are not as good as the
>> ...
>> -Dave (dsill@relay.nswc.navy.mil)
> Not to mention that MIDI capability can easily surpass the processing
> power of the NeXT, and it's already available for several computers.
Competing with the Amiga on "dumb", flashy, pyrotechnic shoot-em-ups,
the NeXT has no chance. I think the types of games Michael was referring to
were games with considerably more "substance" and mental stimulation. Sure,
Ami's blitter & copper "cpus" can blast color pixmaps very efficient, but let's
remind ourselves that the heart of the machine, the part that actually THINKS,
is a mere 7.16 MHz 68000, rather primitive for reasonably involved simulations.
Also, when Michael mentioned sound, he wasn't referring to cheesy 8 bit
sound suitable for arcade noises (no offense to game authors here, I've done
my share of that sort...), but what about real music?? What about 16 voices
of high-quality (at 12 bits/sample, it would sound as good as a cheap CD
player) sound/voiceovers??? And in stereo besides. Noone wants to buy a game
which requires external entities like DX-7's, Roland JX-8P's, or Akai S-900's.
Sure, you COULD do a game using MIDI for sound, but it'd be the silliest and
more frivolous use ever imagined, and only a select few could possibly run it!
The Ami is a fine product, and with the release of the 2500, it is even better,
but a *fast* machine it ain't. It's co-processors are designed around very
specific tasks (blitting pixmaps/memory for the most part), while it's overall
throughput is quite slow. It's a great machine for $1000, but in the end,
you always get what you pay for.
Robert M. Seretny,
(Oh boy, did I step into a firepit or what???)
(Flames welcomed seretny@hartford.bitnet)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 15:44:00 EDT
From: "Dr. DOS" <GOODWIN@SMCVAX>
Subject: RE: Argh! Argh!
>> Not to mention that MIDI capability can easily surpass the processing
>> power of the NeXT, and it's already available for several computers.
> Robert Seretny writes:
>Noone wants to buy a game which requires external entities like DX-7's, Roland
>JX-8P's, or Akai S-900's. Sure, you COULD do a game using MIDI for sound, but
>it'd be the silliest and more frivolous use ever imagined, and only a select
>few could possibly run it!
Perhaps you should mention this concern to Sierra. They have produced 3 MIDI
capable games to date, all of which have been enthusiastically received.
They have managed to sell-out twice on their package-deal of a Roland MT-32
Tone Generator with sequencing software included. They sell it at $500, and
they can't get enough of 'em. If you happen to have the gear already, so much
the better. In fact, Roland is supposed to be working with Sierra on a low
cost, card-style MT-32 to plug into a standard PC slot. All of a sudden, MIDI
doesn't look so "expensive", and it beats the devil out of a card like Adlib!
Dave Goodwin
St. Michael's College
Winooski, VT
Goodwin@SMCVAX
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 89 22:19:00 EDT
From: Owner of a lonely heart <BARRSTEVE@UNCG>
Subject: Response to loyal list'er
?From: Michael Nosal <ST502042@BROWNVM.BITNET>
?Subject: Alternatives to NeXT? WRONG!
?Everyone out there looking for alternatives to the NeXT is barking up
?the wrong tree. In short, THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES TO THE NeXT!!!
Ah, brand loyalty, something almost unheard of in the computer world.
How refreshing.
?Why? I'll explain.
?People are too MIPS-oriented and can't think clearly. As has been said before,
^^^For me, time=money and [IMHO] my computer should wait on me,
not the other way around. Would you like waiting for you car to respond to your
turn of the wheel?
?the *REAL* power of the machine is not how many MIPS, or MFLOPS, or any
?xxxstones rating, but rather the overall seamless integration of the
?entire system.
A couple of things:
1. The machine is separate from the software. I can make my ST act like a
UN*X box, a Mac, or an IBM PC [etc...]. How well it does this is
to a great deal dependent on how fast my base machine runs.
2. How are you to measure something that is essentially a number processing
device [i.e. a computer] except by how fast it processes numbers?
3. For "seamless integration of the entire system" I'd much rather use
something like Hewlett-Packard's New Wave(tm) which seems more useful.
?What NeXT has given us is a brand-new tool, unlike any we have ever had for
?spreading the use of computers to LESS and LESS technical applications.
Perhaps more refined than any other. To me it is a Mac with UN*X and sound.
?Take the example from the Macintosh world. When it came out, it was slow and
?not as powerful as some other PC-class machines of the time. But it had many
?of the new features that we take for granted now. How many businesses did
?ANY desktop pub. before the Mac? Now ask how many consider their DTP to be
?"essential" to their business. How did they *ever* get along without it?
?Now we must ask "What applications would *REALLY* take advantage of the
?NeXT?" Certainly not more spreadsheets or accounting packages.
Actually a spreadsheet would help the NeXT get accepted into the business
world ["Oh, I can have an impressive box on my desk AND have a use for it!"]
?How about access for the handicapped (a MUCH overlooked area) ?
Please explain your reasoning here. Most devices I've seen to help the
handicapped use computers deal with their interfacing with the machine
effectively. Devices like a metal keyboard cover with holes to let people
"aim" their fingers at the keys is one example. The NeXT does have one good
point here, though it is certainly not unique, and that is its large screen
and the ability to enlarge the fonts. I find fault with its mouse [difficult
for those with motion disorders to control] and the size of the pointer [though
it may be possible to change it]. Unless you add other devices to the NeXT
I doubt its ability to be used effectively by the handicapped [the power
switch being part of my reservation].
?How about TRUE hypermedia? (Not hacked-up Hypercard stacks) I'd LOVE to punch
?in some old textbooks and use the graphics and sound to *really* explain some
?concepts. (Anyone who has seen "The Mechanical Universe" can appreciate that)
The NeXT is useable for this [especially three students or so watching three
different lessons on the same monitor >-] as are several computers out on the
market like the MacII and the ATW. I don't feel the NeXT excels at this as
much as it does in its musical ability.
?* How about Applications in the Classics, English, or History? Strategy
? analysis of famous battles? Exploring the ancient Egyptian society?
? David Macaulay's (sp?) books PYRAMID, CATHEDRAL, CASTLE? The NeXT would
? really be useful in teaching these concepts.
How about Applications in Music? If software is being developed that would
let the NeXT have at least the editing abilities of the software on the
Atari ST and the Amiga the NeXT stands a good chance [IMHO] of becoming a
"studio in a box."
?The point is, given the HUGE storage space on the Optical Disk, the fantastic
Huge? I disagree. The "floptical" [sp?] is supposed to be able to hold
a gigabyte on a 3.5" diskette. Storage of 20meg has already been acheived.
?sound capability (CD's sound pretty Damn good, don't they?) and more than
Yes, they do sound good. The NeXT's saving grace [again, IMHO].
?acceptable graphics (which will eventually be improved into more greyscales,
?higher resolution or color), we now have the ability to really get physical
?with what we are computing.
"get physical" If you mean have it more non-computer-like, perhaps, but
fear of computers is hardly a problem these days, is it?
?(Personally, I'd *love* to see some KILLER games on the NeXT. This has real
?possibilities, far beyond ANYTHING you've seen, esp. with the sound!)
Oh well, somehow it always comes down to games, vital as they obviously are
to how valuable a computer is to a user. (personally, I'd like to see some
music software, vital as that is to all musicians who are on a budget.)
?No other machine/system out there has everything the NeXT has and nothing
?does it as well.
Whoa!! If no other machine has what the NeXT has HOW COULD ANY MACHINE DO
"IT" AS WELL?!?! No other machine is a NeXT therefore no machine can act
like a NeXT. Was there some point to this statement?
I hate to use the MacII as an example, but it does have [at least from a
business standpoint, correct me if I am wrong]:
1. a lower price [about 9 thou for the 68030, I think]
2. Similar size monitor available [though without the greyscales, etc]
3. Lots of stuff already available [I know the NeXT is new, tell that to
people who purchase computers to help them make money.]
I don't know if the business world is going to give Jobs the slack he will
need [IMHO yet again] to build up a base of support.
The NeXT could develop into a useful machine given support. With IBM having
some legal right to use NeXTStep [sp?] [purchased the rights or somesuch]
the NeXT might survive in the market.
I think the NeXT could be a good friend to the musician, if some company can
get the software out the door soon enough.
?--- Michael Nosal
?--- ST502042@brownvm.brown.edu
Steve Barr BARRSTEVE@UNCG.BITNET BARRSTEV@NEXT.UNCG.EDU
DISCLAIMER: My opinions are not necessarily those of my employers.
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-- End of NeXT Digest --