[comp.sys.next] Cooperation

mark@mips.COM (Mark G. Johnson) (04/10/89)

In article <2659@tank.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes:
  >Well, not being an established company with a product, a friend of mine
  >and I wanted to talk to someone at NeXt about getting one of these cubes
  >for designing a specific program. All we got was a secretary putting
  >down our name.  Even after specifically requesting repeatedly to talk
  >to someone, we were informed that this was impossible.
  >
  >That was about 3 months ago. We haven't heard from NeXt yet. Similarly,
**>a message to the only participant of NeXt on this net (Ali O.) was never
  >even replied to with a hint who we should contact.
  >
  >Seems uncooperative to me... I wonder how you even started to talk to
  >them.  Are you big enough so that NeXt would contact you?


Sounds like it's known for sure that NeXT has a net-feed (line ** above),
so it's a given, a certainty, that most of their technical folks read
this newsgroup.  Heck, maybe even their marketing & management jockeys
read it too.  Feedback of both kinds (gripes and praise) on the net are
heard (and quite likely, acted upon) if not acknowledged.

Also, the command "uupath next" reveals that NeXT can send and receive
email; perhaps NeXT would operate less stand-offishly if approached
this way.  Of course the exact wrong thing to do would be to mail
a hotheaded flame to ...!next!steve  ---- that'd pretty much guarantee
that you'll _never_ lay hands on a freebie.

-- mj

bob@tinman.cis.ohio-state.edu (Bob Sutterfield) (04/11/89)

In article <16913@obiwan.mips.COM> mark@mips.COM (Mark G. Johnson) writes:
   In article <2659@tank.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes:
      ...Similarly, a message to the only participant of NeXt on this
      net (Ali O.)

   Sounds like it's known for sure that NeXT has a net-feed...

Depends upon what you mean.  The UUCP map database shows that they
have UUCP connections with adobe and pixar, but neither of those
entries claims a news exchange.  They're on CSnet for internet mail,
but nothing answers the phone at (what would be) their NNTP socket.
You can get mail in and out, but it's a fair bet that nobody reads
news on any machines inside NeXT.

   ...so it's a given, a certainty, that most of their technical folks
   read this newsgroup.

As above, it ain't necessarily so.  Mr Ozer participates from an
account (perhaps a guest account, or one left over from grad-student
days) at Stanford.  Others there have similar accounts elsewhere (hi
Bob!).  Unless the map entries are inaccurate or most of their tech
staff have guest accounts elsewhere, they are isolated from the news,
and therefore from this discussion forum.

   Heck, maybe even their marketing & management jockeys read it too.
   Feedback of both kinds (gripes and praise) on the net are heard
   (and quite likely, acted upon) if not acknowledged.

Some choice excerpts get through and cause occasional waves :-)

   Of course the exact wrong thing to do would be to mail a hotheaded
   flame to ...!next!steve

That would not only not get you the desired effect, but may get NeXT's
net connections yanked altogether.  Apparently he doesn't like the
competition from other, lesser hotheads :-) :-)

jtn@zodiac.ADS.COM (John Nelson) (04/11/89)

>Depends upon what you mean.  The UUCP map database shows that they
>have UUCP connections with adobe and pixar, but neither of those
>entries claims a news exchange.  They're on CSnet for internet mail,
>but nothing answers the phone at (what would be) their NNTP socket.
>You can get mail in and out, but it's a fair bet that nobody reads
>news on any machines inside NeXT.

Hmmmm... they have Suns within NeXT and at least one UUCP connection
yet they don't participate via news or mail (I notice that one NeXT
person uses an account on another non-NeXT machine).

This is a mistake on NeXT's part.  Usenet and the Internet comprise
the largest base of Unix technical and support expertise anywhere.
NeXT should both derive benefit from this technical base as well as
participate.  It's much too insular to "lurk" from the shadows, even
if you are receptive to outside ideas.

But then NeXT has other things to do... like get their software out of
the pre-release stages.  Nonetheless, a concerted effort on NeXT's
part to join the user community and participate would tell me that
they're serious about developing a machine for the community at large.




Sine Visa Ars Nihil Est
- John T. Nelson

avie@wb1.cs.cmu.edu (Avadis Tevanian) (04/11/89)

In article <16913@obiwan.mips.COM> mark@mips.COM (Mark G. Johnson) writes:
>Sounds like it's known for sure that NeXT has a net-feed (line ** above),
>so it's a given, a certainty, that most of their technical folks read
>this newsgroup.  Heck, maybe even their marketing & management jockeys
>read it too.  Feedback of both kinds (gripes and praise) on the net are
>heard (and quite likely, acted upon) if not acknowledged.
>

Actually, we don't have a news-feed; however, several of us do read
comp.sys.next via other mechanisms.  Often, I personally hesitate to
reply to messages because I would rather not reply than to spend the
time it would take to give a good reply.  It does seem, though, that
people appreciate the direct feedback from NeXT people, so perhaps I'll
try to participate more in the future (time permitting, of course).  But,
I don't want to get involved in discussions about why machine X is
better or worse than a NeXT machine, or future product plans, ...  You
get the idea.

>Also, the command "uupath next" reveals that NeXT can send and receive
>email; perhaps NeXT would operate less stand-offishly if approached
>this way.  Of course the exact wrong thing to do would be to mail
>a hotheaded flame to ...!next!steve  ---- that'd pretty much guarantee
>that you'll _never_ lay hands on a freebie.
>

next!steve won't send mail to the Steve you think it will, but it will
send mail to a Steve here in the software group.  He already gets enough
junk mail destined for Steve Jobs, so please dob't send him more.
-- 
Avadis Tevanian, Jr.    (Avie)
Chief Operating System Scientist
NeXT, Inc.
avie@cs.cmu.edu or avie@NeXT.com
-- 

apte@Portia.Stanford.EDU (R Apte) (04/13/89)

In article <7515@zodiac.UUCP> jtn@ads.com (John Nelson) writes:
>Hmmmm... they have Suns within NeXT and at least one UUCP connection
>yet they don't participate via news or mail (I notice that one NeXT
>person uses an account on another non-NeXT machine).
>
>This is a mistake on NeXT's part.  Usenet and the Internet comprise


Steve Jobs has decided that the risk of virus is too great on the internet
and will not allow anyone at NeXT to perform any internet functions other
than mail.  This is why Ozer uses a Stanford machine to read/post.

Raj B. Apte

jgreely@previous.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely) (04/13/89)

In article <1534@Portia.Stanford.EDU> apte@Portia.Stanford.EDU (R Apte) writes:
>Steve Jobs has decided that the risk of virus is too great on the internet
>and will not allow anyone at NeXT to perform any internet functions other
>than mail.

I hope this is not hard-wired corporate policy, because it sounds (as
written) like a knee-jerk reaction to an over-hyped problem.  Hell,
even MILNET came back once they were sure the worm was caught.  The
people who operate anonymous ftp sites supporting NeXT software and
information come out looking like idiots ("we allow anonymous ftp for
NeXt-related stuff, but *they* think it's too big a risk.  But not a
big enough risk to encourage their customers to do the same").

  If the Internet is too risky, why isn't there an easy way to disable
these hideously unsafe features from my NeXT, or at least something in
the documentation giving me a brief explanation of what to do?  *I*
happen to know, but a novice user/administrator could get *very*
confused/annoyed/disturbed/miffed about this.  Is any mention of this
in 0.9, or does NeXT not mention their concerns about network security
to customers?

(NOTE: The above is intentionally slightly inflammatory, but is not
intended as a criticism of the product or the company.  At this time,
I'm responding to an un-proven allegation, criticizing it as a bad
idea of the first magnitude.  Anything potentially tactless (or
"tacky") is mine, and does not represent the opinion of the Ohio State
University.  Now, if it were revealed by a company representative that
this *were*, in fact, official policy, my approach would be similar,
but better researched and thought out.

I do know that it is at least partially true, since next.com refuses
anything but mail, telnet, and name-server connections (not that I
tried everything, mind you).  But all the lack of connections shows is
the effect, not the intent.)

-=-
J Greely (jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu; osu-cis!jgreely)

desnoyer@Apple.COM (Peter Desnoyers) (04/14/89)

In article <1534@Portia.Stanford.EDU> apte@Portia.Stanford.EDU (R Apte) writes:
>
>Steve Jobs has decided that the risk of virus is too great on the internet
>and will not allow anyone at NeXT to perform any internet functions other
>than mail.  This is why Ozer uses a Stanford machine to read/post.
>
>Raj B. Apte

Ironic, given that one of the pathways for the Internet worm was
sendmail, and that USENET can be accessed through UUCP without using
the Internet.

				Peter Desnoyers