osborn@ut-emx.UUCP (John H. Osborn) (04/14/89)
Here are some random, disjointed thoughts that occur to me after spending several months reading comp.sys.next and assorted magazine and newspaper articles, plus talking with some people. I'd like to find out if I'm totally wrong on them, or if I raise a good point or two. People keep throwing around the $6000 to $6500 price. According to the price list available from my university's computer store, the price is more like $7500. $6000+ for the cube plus $1250 for the display. Is the $6500 price, so often quoted, deliberately misleading, or is my university (U-Texas at Austin) adding on to the base price for additional profit? I read that NeXTStep programs can be run, windows and all, from remote users. (This is the -host option we've been kicking around.) I like the idea of several people in an office using one NeXT via remote, NeXTStep terminals. This could certainly be one lower cost alternative to buying a cube for each user. Is there a way to share a NeXT printer among several machines on a network? Obviously, sending the raster image through ethernet would be too slow, but how about sending the postscript description to the cube driving the printer and having the raster image be generated there? (I wouldn't want to be the poor user on this cube, having all this stuff done in the background.....slowly.) Speaking of printers, I am seriously considering buying a NeXT, and would like to have the laser printer, but $2000 is an awfully large amount of money for a college student such as myself. I wish there was a cheaper alternative. I could see NeXT working with HP to develop a model of the HP DeskJet to work with the Cube. As an ink-jet printer, the cost would be much lower. (I believe they list from HP for $995.) And at 300dpi, the resolution is certainly comparable to the current laser printer. How nice is the support for other postscript printers? I've heard the capability mentioned, but it has rarely been discussed here. The NeXT is a really nice machine, but the idea of spending $10,000 or so for a usable system (Cube,Display,330drive,Printer) really scares me. A former employer has a museum piece: A $10,000 Apple Lisa. The simularities are creepy. I feel like buying a NeXT right now is betting all that money that the machine is going to catch on. I might just be crazy enough to do it, but it sure makes me nervous. What is NeXT doing to calm me, and all the other nervous buyers out there? If I may speak for some of the lurking, unposting masses, thanks go to Ali Ozer and the other NeXT folks who take the time to read, and answer questions to the net. I find it amazing that NeXT doesn't get news feed, but these people are certainly doing their share in making up for it. Disclaimer: The University of Texas at Austin, nor the Computation Center thereof have not the slightest responsibility for any creative, witty, intellegent thing I happen to post or mail. UT doesn't care that I have an opinion, much less share it with me. -John H. Osborn (osborn@emx.utexas.edu --- Computation Center for Univ. of Texas at Austin)
ali@polya.Stanford.EDU (Ali T. Ozer) (04/14/89)
In article <12017@ut-emx.UUCP> osborn@ut-emx.UUCP (John H. Osborn) writes: >Is the $6500 price, so often quoted, deliberately misleading, or is >my university (U-Texas at Austin) adding on to the base price for >additional profit? $6500 is the price NeXT charges; the campus organization(s) selling the machines usually add something on top of it. >Is there a way to share a NeXT printer among several machines on a network? >Obviously, sending the raster image through ethernet would be too slow, >but how about sending the postscript description to the cube driving the >printer and having the raster image be generated there? Yes; this functionality is handled via the standard Unix remote printing mechanism. >How nice is the support for other postscript printers? I've heard the >capability mentioned, but it has rarely been discussed here. Other PS printers (such as Linotype, Apple LaserWriter, etc) are supported; all you need is an appropriate printcap entry. The 0.8 WriteNow had problems printing to non-NeXT printers, but that was a problem with WriteNow, not the system. Ali Ozer, NeXT Developer Support aozer@NeXT.com
feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman) (04/14/89)
In article <12017@ut-emx.UUCP> osborn@ut-emx.UUCP (John H. Osborn) writes: >People keep throwing around the $6000 to $6500 price. According to the >price list available from my university's computer store, the price is >more like $7500. $6000+ for the cube plus $1250 for the display. >Is the $6500 price, so often quoted, deliberately misleading, or is >my university (U-Texas at Austin) adding on to the base price for >additional profit? $6500 is the higher education price for the base NeXT computer (8MB ram, optical drive), including the megapixel display (the cube is useless without the display). Your University is probably adding to the base price to cover their costs -- not to achieve a profit. Stocking, distributing, supporting, and servicing computers costs money. It's much more fair to have the people purchasing the computers pay for this necessary overhead than to have everyone's tuition subsidize your NeXT purchase. >I read that NeXTStep programs can be run, windows and all, from remote >users. (This is the -host option we've been kicking around.) >I like the idea of several people in an office using one NeXT via >remote, NeXTStep terminals. This could certainly be one lower cost >alternative to buying a cube for each user. What do you want in your NeXTStep terminal? Display PostScript? A good display? Sound input? Sound output? Ethernet connectivity? Local and/or remote printing? Serial line connectivity? It's starting to sound very much like a NeXT. Perhaps IBM will provide a low coust RT/AIX NeXTStep platform. Also, connecting lots o' users to a single NeXT acting as a CPU server means death to that NeXT. As it stands now, a NeXT is powerful enough to handle your average user's average applications. Computers are tools. People seem to forget that sometimes. For any particular job, one computer may not be as good as another. Everyone seems to want ``the best computer'', without regard for the job at hand. A Weed Eater and a riding mower both cut grass, but they are not interchangable. One will most definitely perform some tasks better than the other. For some jobs, both will be needed. And remember, your lawn may be different from mine. Enough of a bad analogy. >Is there a way to share a NeXT printer among several machines on a network? >Obviously, sending the raster image through ethernet would be too slow, >but how about sending the postscript description to the cube driving the >printer and having the raster image be generated there? Yes, and it works the way that you describe (raster is only on the printer cube). >Speaking of printers, I am seriously considering buying a NeXT, and would >like to have the laser printer, but $2000 is an awfully large amount of >money for a college student such as myself. I wish there was a cheaper >alternative. I could see NeXT working with HP to develop a model of the >HP DeskJet to work with the Cube. As an ink-jet printer, the cost would >be much lower. (I believe they list from HP for $995.) And at 300dpi, >the resolution is certainly comparable to the current laser printer. There are serial ports on the back of the cube that can be used to connect non-NeXT printers. The NeXT speaks PostScript and if your printer (e.g., a DeskJet) doesn't speak PostScript, you will need a Postscript to <printer name> printer command converter (e.g., GhostScript). >How nice is the support for other postscript printers? I've heard the >capability mentioned, but it has rarely been discussed here. Under 0.8 there are some problems. Under 0.9 all should be fine. >The NeXT is a really nice machine, but the idea of spending $10,000 or so >for a usable system (Cube,Display,330drive,Printer) really scares me. If it scares you, you should try rethinking your reasons for purchasing a computer. Be an effective consumer -- decide what you need in a computer and see what is available. It will probably be easier to make decisions with regard to purchasing NeXTs once 0.9 (and 1.0) is out. >A former employer has a museum piece: A $10,000 Apple Lisa. >The simularities are creepy. I feel like buying a NeXT right now is >betting all that money that the machine is going to catch on. >I might just be crazy enough to do it, but it sure makes me nervous. >What is NeXT doing to calm me, and all the other nervous buyers out >there? While some comparisons can be drawn, the NeXT is not a Lisa (It's a Delorean:-). As for your state of mind -- if you make crazy purchases, I've got some bridges, some swampland, and a tower in France to sell you (all at incredible higher education prices without markup). >If I may speak for some of the lurking, unposting masses, thanks go >to Ali Ozer and the other NeXT folks who take the time to read, >and answer questions to the net. Yes. Thanks, guys! > I find it amazing that NeXT doesn't >get news feed, but these people are certainly doing their share in >making up for it. The fact is that NeXT is listening and speaking (w/o mach ports:-). If a good portion of NeXT did read news, we might not see 1.0 until the year 2000:-) Mark
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (04/14/89)
The cost of the cube to institutions is $6500 according to the NeXT literature that I have on hand here. Institutions, however, have the freedom to add on whatever amount of margin they desire. Looks like the UT Austin book store is taking a cut of about 10%. Re: the Deskjet. The coputation engine in the Deskjet is a Z8 microcontroller, so it doesn't exactly have the kind of muscle required to do postscript processing at a resonable performance level. At the moment, I believe the maximum RAM address space in the Deskjet is 256K (two 128K RAM cartridges). If you do graphics that has a lot of black area, the Deskjet can get kind of expensive to operate too; the ink carts go for about $20 and will do 500 pages of average typed output in full letter quality or about 1000 pages in 50% draft mode (even the draft mode looks pretty good). With graphics, cartidge life can drop as low as only several hundred pages. Graphics with large black areas can also suffer from a lot of wrinkle in the paper due to the water-based ink. So, you see, the desk jet is sort of like buying a Porsche and taking out a 15 year loan to pay it off; cheap now, but you pay for a long time. If you want to do a lot of graphics with a lot of black area, the laser printers cheaper consumables will save you money in the long run. For mostly text output, the Deskjet is about a break-even propsition. What would make sense would be to port the Ghostscript Postscript to HP PCL converter for the NeXT machine. Ghostscript builds the raster image of the output on the host machine and dumps it to the printer. This would work on the Deskjet as long as it works the raster from the top of the page down. On the Deskjet, you can't execute a reverse paper motion command while printing because the ink that has not yet dried could become smeared. Please don't take this article as knocking the Deskjet. I've had a Deskjet for slightly more than a year and like it very much, using it every day. It would be difficult to make me give up my Deskjet. I just wanted to point out some of the limitations. Bill wtm@impulse.UUCP
eht@cs.cmu.edu (Eric Thayer) (04/15/89)
> People keep throwing around the $6000 to $6500 price. According to the > price list available from my university's computer store, the price is > more like $7500. $6000+ for the cube plus $1250 for the display. At CMU, the price is $6770 for the base system (8MB, mo drive, display). It sounds a little unusual that they would be pricing the display separately. Conclude what you wish. > I like the idea of several people in an office using one NeXT via > remote, NeXTStep terminals. This could certainly be one lower cost > alternative to buying a cube for each user. Problem is that nothing other than NeXT's Workspace Manager would understand the request for a connection from the single cube that everyone is sharing. Thus, the graphics are only available to people on other cubes. However, the cube can work as a Unix box. Someone else might be able to comment on the performance of this arrangement. > Is there a way to share a NeXT printer among several machines on a network? yes > Obviously, sending the raster image through ethernet would be too slow, > but how about sending the postscript description to the cube driving the > printer and having the raster image be generated there? That's how its done. > (I wouldn't want to be the poor user on this cube, having all this stuff > done in the background.....slowly.) Depending on the print job, the response time for the console user on the server machine can be rather poor. I have heard rumors that this can be changed with some tweeking to the scheduling of the printing. > I feel like buying a NeXT right now is > betting all that money that the machine is going to catch on. > I might just be crazy enough to do it, but it sure makes me nervous. > What is NeXT doing to calm me, and all the other nervous buyers out > there? The Businessland deal should calm people a bit. However, it remains to be seen what the software developers who have committed to developing applications for the NeXT are able to do by this summer. If nothing is forthcoming by then, it might be a long hot summer for everyone. It doesn't seem like lack of applications is going to be an issue, but at this point, things are still at the vaporware stage. > If I may speak for some of the lurking, unposting masses, thanks go > to Ali Ozer and the other NeXT folks who take the time to read, > and answer questions to the net Seconded.
rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) (04/15/89)
> Re: the Deskjet. The coputation engine in the Deskjet is a Z8 > microcontroller, so it doesn't exactly have the kind of muscle > required to do postscript processing at a resonable performance No, no, no. Use the DPS in the cube to handle the PostScript, and just send bitmaps to the printer. Especially with the new DJ+, this should work *very* well. > level. At the moment, I believe the maximum RAM address space in > the Deskjet is 256K (two 128K RAM cartridges). If you do graphics > that has a lot of black area, the Deskjet can get kind of expensive > to operate too; the ink carts go for about $20 and will do 500 That's only four cents a sheet. A laser cartridge at $100 lasts only 5000 sheets---that's two cents a sheet---and I'll bet the amortization of the laser cost over the sheets printed is higher than with the DeskJet. The DJ is a wonderful, wonderful deal. > hundred pages. Graphics with large black areas can also suffer > from a lot of wrinkle in the paper due to the water-based ink. I normally fed 50# book paper through my DJ---takes care of that problem nicely. (50# book is maybe 28# letter---not too much heavier than standard 20# xerox paper, but it sure looks and feels nicer.) > So, you see, the desk jet is sort of like buying a Porsche and > taking out a 15 year loan to pay it off; cheap now, but you pay for > a long time. If you want to do a lot of graphics with a lot of > black area, the laser printers cheaper consumables will save you > money in the long run. For mostly text output, the Deskjet is > about a break-even propsition. I dunno. A typical laser printer at $2000 (we are talking NeXT here) would mean you'd have to print ($2000.00/.04) or 25,000 sheets to break even---many people may *never* go through those 50 reams of paper. Probably not in the lifetime of that particular engine. DeskJet is for personal printing, and it excels there. Lasers are for high-volume personal or office printing. > What would make sense would be to port the Ghostscript Postscript > to HP PCL converter for the NeXT machine. Ghostscript builds the Why, with DSP in the cube? -tom
korn@anableps.berkeley.edu (Peter "Arrgh" Korn) (04/16/89)
In <4698@umd5.umd.edu>, feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman) said: >In article <12017@ut-emx.UUCP> osborn@ut-emx.UUCP (John H. Osborn) writes: >>People keep throwing around the $6000 to $6500 price. According to the >>price list available from my university's computer store, the price is >>more like $7500. $6000+ for the cube plus $1250 for the display. >>Is the $6500 price, so often quoted, deliberately misleading, or is >>my university (U-Texas at Austin) adding on to the base price for >>additional profit? > >$6500 is the higher education price for the base NeXT computer (8MB ram, >optical drive), including the megapixel display (the cube is useless without >the display). > >Your University is probably adding to the base price to cover their costs -- >not to achieve a profit. Stocking, distributing, supporting, and servicing >computers costs money. It's much more fair to have the people purchasing >the computers pay for this necessary overhead than to have everyone's >tuition subsidize your NeXT purchase. Having worked in University sales of computers (Macintoshes, HPs, etc.), I want to point out that $1,250 is NOT at all a reasonable figure to cover stocking, distributing, supporting, and servicing a computer. Yes, NeXT wants more support and service that most. But only 90 days worth of that service and support comes from the initial price of the machine; any more would be purchased separately through a service agreement. I will also grant that University departments will want (and receive) more than 90 days worth of support w/out additional cost. However, almost all such departments at almost all (if not all) are paying the $6,500 price for the machine, and not paying anything like $1,250 more. I've been looking into purchasing a NeXT. As a UC Berkeley student, I cannot purchase one from my university because it is apparently felt that there isn't enough demand for individual purchases here. However I can go to UC Davis to purchase one. The price for a base cube, with the monitor and optical drive (which Davis pays $6,500 for) is $7,830. Which means I'd be paying $1,330 for the Davis bookstore to order the machine, take it off a truck and put it into a room, take it out of the room and give it to me, and help me with any problems for 90 days (though the cost of any repairs and parts needed for such repairs would be reimbursed to Davis from NeXT). This price, btw, is before I pay California sales tax. Not all campuses mark up NeXT machines by 20% or more. Some are as little as 5% (the lowest I've found so far). At 5% we're looking at $325 payment to the university (or university bookstore) to pay it's employees, etc. which is well within reasonable payment, if not on the low side (then again, it depents upon how many they move/month). Most retail computer stores are quite happy with a 20% markup on hardware. Most retail computer stores have to pay rent, have to (somewhat aggressively) sell their merchandise, have to train employees, have to pay for advertisements, etc. Most universities don't pay rent, don't need to aggressively sale their wares, have lots of college students willing to work for cheap who already know lots about the machines, and don't need to advertise. NeXT has done a fair amount of work producing a very nice machine at a very reasonable price. The least our schools can do is add only what charges they need to cover their costs before letting students and faculty purchase this machine. After all, our universities are there to provide access to education and the tools of education; and not to maximize their profits... aren't they? Peter -- Peter "Arrgh" Korn korn@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU {decvax,hplabs,sdcsvax,ulysses,usenix}!ucbvax!korn
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (04/18/89)
In article <4698@umd5.umd.edu>, feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman) writes: > What do you want in your NeXTStep terminal? Display PostScript? Yes. > A good display? An OK display. 1200 by 800 would be wonderful. 800 by 600 would be acceptable. > Sound input? Sound output? Nope. > Ethernet connectivity? Yes. > Local and/or remote printing? That's up to the (in X terms) client. > Serial line connectivity? Yes, but this is cheap. > It's starting to sound very > much like a NeXT. Sounds more like a PC with an EGA. -- Peter da Silva, Xenix Support, Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Business: uunet.uu.net!ficc!peter, peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. Personal: ...!texbell!sugar!peter, peter@sugar.hackercorp.com.