buzz@tippy.uucp (06/15/89)
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm very new to the cube; my only access is through Purdue's public demonstration lab -- and I rarely make it in there. I'm curious, how is third-party software to be distributed? Will some one ne be releasing a high-capacity disk drive? How about modems and telecomm software? What other software/hardware is in the pipeline? This may not be big questions to some of you, but for some one like me who's cube (if I can ever save enough for one) would sit on a desktop in their apartment, they're rather important.
gerrit@nova.cc.purdue.edu (Gerrit) (06/17/89)
In article <65100001@tippy> buzz@tippy.uucp writes: > >I'm curious, how is third-party software to be distributed? Will some one ne >be releasing a high-capacity disk drive? How about modems and telecomm >software? What other software/hardware is in the pipeline? 3rd party software: There will be various means of distribution, usually depending on the size of the product. In some cases the developer will ship an Optical Disk to every purchaser. In other cases, a developer may use the Key system that NeXT is working on to distribute a copy to central points (typically University support centers) and sell "keys" to the support center which will allow a certain number of copies to be made. And for developers with small products, NeXT will collect small products and make them available as software group, putting several products on a single OD. (Some of this info may have changed, it is just what I remember from the developer's camp). High Capacity Disk Drives? The NeXT ships with a 256 Meg removable, read/write Optical disk. Is that high enough capacity? They also make available 330Meg and 660Meg hard drives. And to top that off there is a standard SCSI port and you can go vendor shopping and pick up pretty much anything you want. Modems/telecomm: Kermit can be made to work, as probably can be xmodem/ymodem/zmodem and such. There is a standard RS-422 port on the back, so you can pick up almost any standard modem and the appropriate cable and attach it to your phone line. There have been rumors of a software modem utilizing the DSP, but at this point those are just rumours. Other software: The list has been posted here many times already. I'd suggest you stop by the demo lab at Purdue. I also plan to make available the archives of this group once I get a chance to prune out some of the unneeded headers. There is also a small but growing amount of software available in the public domain. Much of it is available for anonymous ftp from J.cc.purdue.edu, cs.orst.edu, and umd5.umd.edu. Gerrit Huizenga NeXT Workstation Support Purdue University Computing Center gerrit@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu (06/19/89)
> NeXt should redesign the optical drive to take tiny weeny small disks > that cost only $5, like the cheap small CD's that have come out, > or break down and install a real floppy for distribution purposes. It's too bad NeXT is not so well-organized. I own a Mac II with a modem, and I NEVER use the floppy drive for software distribution. I get mostly PD software off the net and off BBS's, using a 2400 baud modem. I'm surprised that NeXT, which has several former Xerox employees, hasn't implemented some encryption software to make commercial distribution just as simple. Xerox does this with its product factoring software. All that the box of software really needs is an instruction manual and a cryptographic key, written on a slip of paper. The vendor can make the software available on a BBS, to customers who have correct software keys, enabling them to download the software. There are so many advantages to this scheme (trivial to supply vendor upgrades, no lag-time in floppy printing, essentially constant cost to publish a release v.s. linear cost to publish 3 floppies/customer, etc etc etc). If the NeXT had the 56000 DSP chip working as a modem, then the modem would essentially substitute as a floppy. It's too bad NeXT is not pioneering this technology. Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801 ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies
craig@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Craig Hubley) (06/19/89)
In article <3015@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> gerrit@nova.cc.purdue.edu (Gerrit) writes: >use the Key system that NeXT is working on to distribute a copy to central >points (typically University support centers) and sell "keys" to the >support center which will allow a certain number of copies to be made. And Hmm... if NeXT is working on this then they might be taking a unique approach. Apollo used to have a License Server that worked over NCS and allowed a certain number of copies to be *in use at once*. I say 'used to' because now H-P owns Apollo and of course NCS, which has been licensed to a lot of other folks including DEC and IBM, and probably soon the OSF. NCS is a pretty cool distributed computing system, it would be nice to see it on the NeXT anyway. There's another approach to distribution, which the Japanese call 'superdistribution' (a play on 'superconductivity', I guess) and is basically a monster ISDN (or something) based service network. It's apparently being worked on very seriously as a way to distribute music, newspapers and movies as well as software. I have only seen one mention of it, in the January 1989 Byte where they are interviewing people about (gasp) 'the future', it was a scientist from Japan whose name and affiliation I forget. If anyone knows more about this 'superdistribution' business I'd appreciate hearing about it. Among other things, it might revolutionize a lot of industries to be run more on innovation and less on marketing bullshit. At least, I would think that if one could ignore advertising and try something without having to break shrink wrapping, people would be more likely to try (paying by time used) before buying (buying a full license authorizing unlimited use), which would encourage people to buy more functional products, which would drive the crap-vendors out of business. Ultimately, people might give up on the idea of 'buying' thereby changing a 'product' industry into a 'service' industry. That is, if this thing from Japan is actually going to be interactive. Sometimes Japanese inventions are brilliant but with flaws so brain-damaged and crippling that it's unbelievable: why aren't digital HDTV pixels square ? Unbelievable! Craig Hubley ------------------------------------- craig@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" mnetor!utgpu!craig@uunet.UU.NET ------------------------------------- {allegra,bnr-vpa,cbosgd,decvax,ihnp4,mnetor,utzoo,utcsri}!utgpu!craig -- Craig Hubley ------------------------------------- craig@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" mnetor!utgpu!craig@uunet.UU.NET ------------------------------------- {allegra,bnr-vpa,cbosgd,decvax,ihnp4,mnetor,utzoo,utcsri}!utgpu!craig
owen@eedsp.gatech.edu (Owen Adair) (06/20/89)
In article <116900003@p.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >All that the box of software really needs is an instruction manual and >a cryptographic key, written on a slip of paper. The vendor can make >the software available on a BBS, to customers who have correct >software keys, enabling them to download the software. There are so What happens when you try to distribute a very successful package that sells many thousand copies? I can just see the 30 or 40 thousand people that got TurboC upgrades when 2.0 came out try and download it at the same time. Don't get me wrong, electronic software distribution perhaps has a place, but to try and use it for primary software distribution to a large audience would be suicide. -owen -- Owen Adair, WD4FSU Digital Signal Processing Lab, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Internet: owen%gteedsp@gatech.gatech.edu uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,linus,rutgers,seismo}!gatech!gt-eedsp!owen
mitsu@well.UUCP (Mitsuharu Hadeishi) (06/23/89)
I work at Electronic Arts where we've been developing state-of-the-art development environments for multiple targets including optical media. I had a chance to take a look at NeXTStep 0.8 a few months ago and was impressed with the completeness of the user- interface toolkit and editor. However, I was less than wowed by the lack of structured code editors, lack of integration between the user-interface editor and code editors, and the fact that all code has to be COMPILED to be tested (except for UI hookups). Are these shortcomings going to be addressed in future versions of the system? Here at Electronic Arts we've developed a portable object-oriented development environment that allows instant turnaround on interpreted code, arbitrary mixing of compiled and interpreted code, etc. This facilitates debugging considerably because all time-critical code can be compiled while you're editing interpreted code with zero debug turnaround---the best of both worlds. We also have at least minimal structured editing with instant syntax checking for interpreted code; we don't have to use vi to edit our source. Is NeXT planning to add any of these features to address the shortcomings of its development environment?
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (06/27/89)
/* Written 5:41 am Jun 20, 1989 by owen@eedsp.gatech.edu in m.cs.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ > What happens when you try to distribute a very successful package that > sells many thousand copies? I can just see the 30 or 40 thousand people > that got TurboC upgrades when 2.0 came out try and download it at the > same time. Actually, this is a problem that can be attacked with queueing theoretic-assumptions, and a system of PCs configured to handle the predicted loads. Remember, we've solved this old problem rather well: "How can we give everyone a telephone? Won't they all want to make a phone call at once?" There are many games you can play, such as mailing out the upgrade invitations gradually, and making some gaussian-distribution assumptions about when people will call during the day and night. You can also redirect people to call back at a scheduled time, if they call during an overloaded period. Overload is only a problem if you let it scare you, or if you don't plan ahead..... Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801 ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies
mdeale@mira.acs.calpoly.edu (Myron Deale) (06/28/89)
In article <288@eedsp.gatech.edu> owen@gt-eedsp.UUCP (Owen Adair) writes: >In article <116900003@p.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >> >>All that the box of software really needs is an instruction manual and >>a cryptographic key, written on a slip of paper. The vendor can make >>the software available on a BBS, to customers who have correct >>software keys, enabling them to download the software. There are so > >What happens when you try to distribute a very successful package that >sells many thousand copies? I can just see the 30 or 40 thousand people >that got TurboC upgrades when 2.0 came out try and download it at the >same time. > >Don't get me wrong, electronic software distribution perhaps has a place, >but to try and use it for primary software distribution to a large audience >would be suicide. > >Owen Adair, WD4FSU It might work. For instance, some universities have students register for classes via touch-tone (not R anymore ?) telephone. The first quarter it was tried around here there wasn't any priority scheme and many ten's of thousands of calls were placed in a matter of hours -- from all over the state. Can you say "grid lock" ? Then again, even with priority scheduling (eg. "last names starting with A-C get to call on Tuesday" and the priority changes per quarter), well let's just say folks still have choice words for the new-fangled technology. Rightly so as of yet. Details on how to get around the problems "are left as an exer- cise for the reader." In addition, access to a 9600 baud modem is important. [Which probably goes without saying ...] Myron // mdeale@cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu // say, isn't gatech an engineering school or am I confusing you with caltech
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (06/28/89)
Re: distributing software via a call-up computerized bulletin board system: >Overload is only a problem if you let it scare you, or if you don't >plan ahead..... Or if you don't care about your customer's happiness. This is the usual reason for overloaded support systems. Doug McDonald
phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (07/22/89)
>I think the writer means a standard, either 5 1/4 or 3 inch FLOPPY >drive! The optical disk is basically for backup and long-term >storage - it is too slow for any other use. 660 meg hard drives are nice, I would disagree. An important use of the OD is to make the NeXT a non-network based data server. I, for example, have moved a database that contains the complete NASDAQ and NYSEAMEX return and price series (daily, since 1962) onto one an OD. Individual user access to large databases is a NeXT innovation. Of course, I wouldn't want to have Mach swap to an OD (:-)) and, I agree, as a backup device, an OD is just great. /Ivo Welch PHD_IVO@GSBACD.UCHICAGO.EDU
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (07/22/89)
>High Capacity Disk Drives? The NeXT ships with a 256 Meg removable, >read/write Optical disk. Is that high enough capacity? They also make >available 330Meg and 660Meg hard drives. And to top that off there is a >standard SCSI port and you can go vendor shopping and pick up pretty much >anything you want. I think the writer means a standard, either 5 1/4 or 3 inch FLOPPY drive! The optical disk is basically for backup and long-term storage - it is too slow for any other use. 660 meg hard drives are nice, but, like optical disks, a bit too expensive for distribution media! NeXt should redesign the optical drive to take tiny weeny small disks that cost only $5, like the cheap small CD's that have come out, or break down and install a real floppy for distribution purposes. Doug McDonald
zdenko@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Zdenko Tomasic) (07/23/89)
In article <245300016@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: ... >I think the writer means a standard, either 5 1/4 or 3 inch FLOPPY >drive! The optical disk is basically for backup and long-term >storage - it is too slow for any other use. 660 meg hard drives are nice, >but, like optical disks, a bit too expensive for distribution media! > >NeXt should redesign the optical drive to take tiny weeny small disks ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >that cost only $5, like the cheap small CD's that have come out, >or break down and install a real floppy for distribution purposes. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Doug McDonald No! NeXT should drive the price of floptical down, not push us back to Messy-DOS world. Raise the common denominator, not lower it! Please, get out of that DOS mentality, the world needs some progress after all. -- ___________________________________________________________________ Zdenko Tomasic, UWM, Chem. Dept., P.O. Box 413, Milwaukee, WI 53201 UUCP: uwvax!uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!zdenko ARPA: zdenko@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
Q3885@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Phillip M Immordino) (08/02/89)
In article <245300016@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu>, mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >NeXt should redesign the optical drive to take tiny weeny small disks >that cost only $5, like the cheap small CD's that have come out, >or break down and install a real floppy for distribution purposes. > >Doug McDonald Canon Optical of Japan designed the 256MEG and 512MEG optical drive. NeXT designed the OSP (Optical storage Processor) chip to interface with the optical drive. The 512MEG (double-sided) drive, will probably come out when they improve the access time. Phil Immordino Princeton University Computing and Information Technology - Tech. Support
weltyc@cs.rpi.edu (Christopher A. Welty) (08/07/89)
In article <245300016@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > >NeXt should redesign the optical drive to take tiny weeny small disks >that cost only $5, like the cheap small CD's that have come out, >or break down and install a real floppy for distribution purposes. > In case someone from NeXT is watching, I would like to strongly second this idea. As a potential developer, the costs of distribution and upgrades to software are currently prohibitive. Imagine shipping a 256 megabyte disk with 2 meg of data on it.... Christopher Welty --- Asst. Director, RPI CS Labs | "Porsche: Fahren in weltyc@cs.rpi.edu ...!njin!nyser!weltyc | seiner schoensten Form"
epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) (08/09/89)
In article <6528@rpi.edu> weltyc@cs.rpi.edu (Christopher A. Welty) writes: > As a potential developer, the costs of distribution and >upgrades to software are currently prohibitive. Imagine shipping a >256 megabyte disk with 2 meg of data on it.... "All Craftsman(R) tools double as hammers." I have very little sympathy. Did it ever occur to you that there are more ways of getting software into (or out of) a cube than the floptical drive? (Do you have access to a NeXT? How many of your potential customers are going to have a NeXT workstation and \nothing/ else? Do you even know what a "workstation" is?) "Give a kid a hammer and he'll find something that needs fixing." -=EPS=- #import "disclaimer/std"
bruceh@zygot.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) (08/10/89)
In article <388@wet.UUCP>, epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) writes: > I have very little sympathy. Did it ever occur to you that there > are more ways of getting software into (or out of) a cube than > the floptical drive? (Do you have access to a NeXT? How many of > your potential customers are going to have a NeXT workstation and > \nothing/ else? Do you even know what a "workstation" is?) "It's people like you wot cause unrest..." John Clease Look here! keep your workstation snobbery in your little toilet training academia! The previous poster havd a very valid point. As far as your grasp of the porpose or the intended market of the machine, it's obvious you haven't got a clue. As far as any knowlege about the machine, it's workings or it's methods, you are also clue-less [I checked the list of people who have attended developer ED.] So keep your uniformed opinions to yourself! -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bruce Henderson Software Engineer zygot!bruceh@Apple.COM "Sorry, Mathematica can't goon this much" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
jgreely@oz.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely) (08/10/89)
In article <2396@zygot.UUCP> bruceh@zygot.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) writes: >In article <388@wet.UUCP>, epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) writes: >>I have very little sympathy. ... (Do you have access to a NeXT? How >>many of your potential customers are going to have a NeXT workstation >>and \nothing/ else? Do you even know what a "workstation" is?) >Look here! keep your workstation snobbery in your little toilet >training academia! The previous poster havd a very valid point. >As far as your grasp of the porpose or the intended market of the >machine, it's obvious you haven't got a clue. Now that everyone is officially clueless, let's all calm down, take a deep breath, and think nice thoughts about people who come from a different environment. The NeXT, thanks to its odd heritage, has *intelligent* people from completely different worlds looking at it, some of whom are workstation-oriented, and some who live the PC life. Both sides have good arguments. Distribution of software for NeXTs has to be flexible, able to handle both the networked and the non. Relax, throw out ideas, take a real look at the other side's views. Personally, I wonder a great deal about how marketing of NeXT software will be handled. Networks are far from universal, and relying on the presence of foreign machines with other media types simply begs the question ("I'd like a copy of Lotus Fribble, and can you ship it on 1/4-inch cartridge tape, HP format?"). I don't know how to solve the problem for every NeXT user, so I promise not to insult someone else's ideas. > As far as any knowlege about the machine, it's workings or it's >methods, you are also clue-less [I checked the list of people who have >attended developer ED.] So keep your uniformed opinions to yourself! Now *this* I take exception to. Presence at developer's camp is not the sole (or even primary) criterion for experience with the NeXT. There are quite a few people who have not attended any of the camps, myself included, who are nonetheless quite capable of holding informed opinions. I've been using and administering the things since mid- December. I know what I'm doing, thankyouverymuch. (not that I don't screw up occasionally...) -=- J Greely (jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu; osu-cis!jgreely)
weltyc@cs.rpi.edu (Christopher A. Welty) (08/11/89)
In article <388@wet.UUCP> epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) writes: >In article <6528@rpi.edu> weltyc@cs.rpi.edu (Christopher A. Welty) writes: >> <some comments> >"All Craftsman(R) tools double as hammers." > <some nonsense> Your inflammatory, insulting, and ignorant message deserves no response but this: Go away, no one asked you. My message was clearly prescripted with `In case someone from NeXT is listening'. >"Give a kid a hammer and he'll find something that needs fixing." uh huh. Christopher Welty --- Asst. Director, RPI CS Labs | "Porsche: Fahren in weltyc@cs.rpi.edu ...!njin!nyser!weltyc | seiner schoensten Form"
jpd00964@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (08/11/89)
>> As a potential developer, the costs of distribution and >>upgrades to software are currently prohibitive. Imagine shipping a >>256 megabyte disk with 2 meg of data on it.... > I have very little sympathy. Did it ever occur to you that there > are more ways of getting software into (or out of) a cube than > the floptical drive? (Do you have access to a NeXT? How many of > your potential customers are going to have a NeXT workstation and > \nothing/ else? Do you even know what a "workstation" is?) A lot. Just becuase the machine can be a good(great) workstation does not limit it to that. In the professional world, you make the most out of what is on the market. Everyone should know that. At my company, we are planning on using the NeXT cube to run our kernal. It has the power we need, and we like programming it, so we picked it. That means it is not hooked up to any mainframe, and it is not hooked up to a tape drive. We are forced to make users buy a high speed modem for upgrades and maintenance on the program. This is acceptable to us, but it may not be for many other developers. Michael Rutman Softmed
epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) (08/12/89)
In article <2396@zygot.UUCP> bruceh@zygot.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) writes: >As far as your grasp of the porpose or the intended market of the >machine, it's obvious you haven't got a clue. As far as any knowlege >about the machine, it's workings or it's methods, you are also >clue-less [I checked the list of people who have attended developer >ED.] So keep your uniformed opinions to yourself! I'm bound by some non-disclosure agreements that make it difficult to rebut this--but you've guessed wrong. Badly. As for NeXT's marketing strategy, let's just say that I have mixed feelings. It doesn't make much difference to me unless they (euphemism) "market limit" the machine in the future. I'm hesitant in my enthusiasm for the machine; some things NeXT employees have told me some things (management decisions) that I consider unfortunate, but not enough to damn the machine. Make no mistake--I *like* NeXTs. I like NeXTs more than anything else in that price range. But I'm not a blind-faith supporter, either. I just tell it like it is. The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people on this list who have no experience with workstations (or for that matter, NeXTs), whose primary sources of information are hearsay, rumor, and "free subscriptions" to slick vertical publications that aren't exactly known for responsible journalism ... or have a specific agenda which includes painting NeXT in a dim light. "Why can't X be more like Y?" "Why don't you stick with Y?" "I don't like Y." -=EPS=-