johner@portia.Stanford.EDU (John Lynch) (11/16/89)
I may have missed this discussion earlier, but I was wondering if anyone knows what(if any) messages the Worskpace Manager sends to the running applications when the user hits the power off switch. From the alert panel that gets displayed and its statement that "all unsaved changes will be lost", one would get the impression that all the Manager does is kill all of the current processes. However, in the class description for Application, there are decalarations for methods suchch as powerOffIn:andSave:, which the application supposedly receives from the Workspace Manager when the machine powers off in so many milliseconds. The application can supposedly go so far as to request more time by sending an extendPowerOffBy: to the Manager, to allow more time for such necessities as saving documents and so forth. I've heard that in 0.8, there was more support for saving changes on power off but that it was taken out for 0.9 and 1.0. If this is true, does anyone know the rationale for the change? As much as I like being able to control the monitor and machine from the keyboard, having a button next to my volume controls which can discard all of my work (with my only warning being a quick alert panel), seems a proposition of dubious merit. If the idea is to allow the user a quick way to shut down the machine and all the processes on it, then maybe that should be the last choice on that alert panel. Anyway, just wondering...
ali@polya.Stanford.EDU (Ali T. Ozer) (11/17/89)
In article <6694@portia.Stanford.EDU> John Lynch writes: >I may have missed this discussion earlier, but I was wondering if anyone >knows what(if any) messages the Worskpace Manager sends to the running >applications when the user hits the power off switch. From the alert panel >that gets displayed and its statement that "all unsaved changes will be lost", >one would get the impression that all the Manager does is kill all of the >current processes. When the user tries to log out or power off the machine, the Workspace Manager sends a powerOffIn:andSave: method to all the apps started from the Workspace Manager itself. The default implementation of this method in Application causes the appPowerOffIn:andSave: method to be called in the app's delegate with the same arguments sent from the Workspace Manager. The first argument specifies the time remaining before the app will be killed, unless the app quits on its own accord earlier. The second argument specifies if the user wants all files saved or not. In 0.9, this argument would be YES or NO depending how the user replied to the "Cancel / Save / Don't Save" panel. In 1.0, this argument is always NO, indicating that the apps should not try to save unsaved documents (hence the Workspace's warning, "all unsaved changes will be lost"). Anyway, despite that an app can take its time quitting, perhaps if it needs to close some files and such. If it needs more than the default time provided, it can also ask for my time with the extendPowerOffBy: message, just like in 0.9 (and 0.8). >I've heard that in 0.8, there was more support for saving changes on >power off but that it was taken out for 0.9 and 1.0. If this is true, does >anyone know the rationale for the change? Rather than having the user hit "Save" on the Logout panel and have all the apps try to save their files within a finite time, it's better to have the user explicitly save the documents that need to be saved and not deal with the documents that don't need to be saved. It might very well be the case that you don't want to save all the changes; only some of them. And, as you can see from above, the apps do have time to clean up and tie loose ends; hitting "Logout" doesn't cause the Workspace to immediately blast away all the running apps. Ali
liemandt@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Joe Liemandt) (11/17/89)
In article <12846@polya.Stanford.EDU> ali@Polya.Stanford.EDU (Ali T. Ozer) writes: >In article <6694@portia.Stanford.EDU> John Lynch writes: >>I may have missed this discussion earlier, but I was wondering if anyone >>knows what(if any) messages the Worskpace Manager sends to the running >>applications when the user hits the power off switch. From the alert panel >>that gets displayed and its statement that "all unsaved changes will be lost", >>one would get the impression that all the Manager does is kill all of the >>current processes. > >When the user tries to log out or power off the machine, the Workspace Manager >sends a powerOffIn:andSave: method to all the apps started from the Workspace >Manager itself. The default implementation of this method in Application >causes the appPowerOffIn:andSave: method to be called in the app's delegate >with the same arguments sent from the Workspace Manager. The first argument >specifies the time remaining before the app will be killed, unless the app >quits on its own accord earlier. The second argument specifies if the user >wants all files saved or not. In 0.9, this argument would be YES or NO >depending how the user replied to the "Cancel / Save / Don't Save" panel. >In 1.0, this argument is always NO, indicating that the apps should not try >to save unsaved documents (hence the Workspace's warning, "all unsaved changes >will be lost"). This seems to be less than optimal. I do not always remember or know if changes were made or need to be saved. I often hide a window or application and could easily forget to save it. Example: I write a paper in WriteNow, hide it, open another, make changes. If I logout, the NeXT is not going to tell me I have unsaved changes. Even if I remember to save the current window, I will probably forget to save the hidden one. Or what if someone wants to logout of my machine and log themselves in. they have no way of knowing what I have changed. I like the Macintosh solution of going through each app and posting a quit event. It is much easier for the computer to prompt me for changes rather than trying to remember where I made changes, going there and saving them. When I am tired, I make stupid mistakes, please save me from them. >>I've heard that in 0.8, there was more support for saving changes on >>power off but that it was taken out for 0.9 and 1.0. If this is true, does >>anyone know the rationale for the change? > >Rather than having the user hit "Save" on the Logout panel and have all the >apps try to save their files within a finite time, it's better to have the >user explicitly save the documents that need to be saved and not deal with >the documents that don't need to be saved. It might very well be the case >that you don't want to save all the changes; only some of them. When I quit, I should get the yes,no, cancel dialog for each window of each app with changes. I can save only the ones I want. >And, as you can see from above, the apps do have time to clean up and tie >loose ends; hitting "Logout" doesn't cause the Workspace to immediately >blast away all the running apps. Apps have time to clean up, but all unsaved changes are lost. > >Ali The problem with my solution is that is does not guarantee that the machine will ever logout/powerdown. I could leave a dialog up and not respond to it and hang the logout. I think this could be solved by adding a button to the logout dialog. So now it has three choices: Logout - do not save changes (how it works now) Save if changes - post a quit to each app and let it deal Cancel - Cancel shutdown Logout - guarantees that the machine will shutdown Save - no guarantee Cancel - guaranteed not to shutdown. This just seems a better way. With the NeXT, I keep many applications open/hidden. I am confident about the machine not bombing, so I am less careful than I am on my Mac. But I can just see having lots of open unsaved windows/applications, and then logging out and losing it. Why not just add the button? Joe Liemandt Stanford University
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (11/17/89)
In article <5844@lindy.Stanford.EDU> liemandt@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Joe Liemandt) writes: >When I quit, I should get the yes,no, cancel dialog for each window of >each app with changes. I can save only the ones I want. I want to get those dialogs, too. Or at least have the option of getting them. Every time I log out, I wonder, did I forget to save something? The only safe way to log out is to go down the dock, quit everything that's active, THEN log out. This is too much hassle, so I don't do it. So sometimes, I lose changes. Bad. The fact that the "M computer" does it right ought to be embarassing for you "N people", too. -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: {convex,uunet}!uiucuxc!dorner IfUMust: (217) 244-1765
morrison@cs.ubc.ca (Rick Morrison) (11/18/89)
In article <1989Nov17.132842.14140@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: >In article <5844@lindy.Stanford.EDU> liemandt@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Joe Liemandt) writes: >>When I quit, I should get the yes,no, cancel dialog for each window of >>each app with changes. I can save only the ones I want. No, please no. I can't stand any more dialog boxes. When I want to log out I want to log out. Period. Personally, I'd be happier if the logout dialog box went away altogether. >I want to get those dialogs, too. Or at least have the option of getting >them. ^^^^^^ Having an option sounds reasonable. And while we're at it, how about an option for click to type, window coverage, window-to-top, etc, etc.? -------------------------------- Rick Morrison | {alberta,uw-beaver,uunet}!ubc-cs!morrison Dept. of Computer Science| morrison@cs.ubc.ca Univ. of British Columbia| morrison%ubc.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1W5 | morrison@ubc.csnet (ubc-csgrads=128.189.97.20) (604) 228-4327
deke@ee.rochester.edu (Dikran Kassabian) (11/20/89)
In <5673@ubc-cs.UUCP> morrison@grads.cs.ubc.ca writes: >In <1989Nov17.132842.14140@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >>In <5844@lindy.Stanford.EDU> liemandt@lindy.Stanford.EDU writes: Too many people talking. My ears hurt. >>>When I quit, I should get the yes,no, cancel dialog for each window of >>>each app with changes. I can save only the ones I want. > >No, please no. I can't stand any more dialog boxes. When I want to log out I >want to log out. Period. Personally, I'd be happier if the logout dialog box >went away altogether. I agree with both of you. I don't want a ton of dialog boxes, but I want them at the write time (pun intended :-). If I have no applications with unsaved changes, please just log me out, no questions asked. If there's stuff that may need saving, give me (the option to have) a dialog box popped up for each. >Having an option sounds reasonable. And while we're at it, how about an >option for click to type, window coverage, window-to-top, etc, etc.? Oh yeah, definitely. It annoys me that I don't seem to have the option of making a partially covered window have input (that is, keyboard) focus. I'm very used to having whatever window my mouse occupies as my current window, regardless of whether or not it is fully exposed. If there's a way to do this, please let me know. Here's another gripe: Why does WriteNow want to put a regular file in the top level of my home directory? I established my own dictionary, and now there is a file called WNDictionary.wndict at my top level. Why not an "invisible" .wndict file? Why not in a .NeXT directory? I object to having an application write visible files at my top level. I try hard to keep my top level organized as directories only. Complaints aside, I love those NeXTs! ^Deke Kassabian, deke@ee.rochester.edu or ur-valhalla!deke Univ of Rochester, Dept of EE, Rochester, NY 14627 (+1 716-275-3106)