pff@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Pablo Fernicola) (12/03/89)
This Friday we had a demo on some 3rd party software for the NeXT (Artisan and others). I asked the person from NeXT about the pricing of software, eg. if it would be in the range of workstations' software ($1000's) or personal computers ($100's). He said that NeXT encourages third party developers to treat the cube as a personal computer and to price their products accordingly. I found this reassuring for my main fear about buying a NeXT was in the pricing of the software. Now, one barrier is down, all I am waiting for is third party software to be out. -- pff@beach.cis.ufl.edu - Pablo Fernicola - Machine Intelligence Laboratory - UF IF YOU CARE ENOUGH TO READ SIGNATURES ... I am graduating next year and I am looking for a job. MS/BS EE, my graduate work incorporates OO-DBMS/Graphics/Robotics/AI
izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (12/04/89)
In article <21354@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> pff@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes: >personal computers ($100's). He said that NeXT encourages third party >developers to treat the cube as a personal computer and to price their >products accordingly. Good for NeXT! I always thought 'workstation' is a silly word. NeXT Personal Computer is fine with me. Let Sun and other vendors indulge in workstation snobbery. So, when Cray PC is coming out? Izumi Ohzawa izumi@violet.berkeley.edu
phd_jacquier@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (12/04/89)
>So, when is Cray PC coming out?
Yeeeeeeeeeees. Let's go for it ! Great concept.
That will help push down the prices of these 786's
Ericrick@hanauma.stanford.edu (Richard Ottolini) (12/04/89)
In article <1989Dec4.015422.21768@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >So, when Cray PC is coming out? > 5 years if trends continue. High end workstations-- DEC 3100, SPARC 370, 486/487-- sustain 4-5 MFLOPS = 0.1 CRAY-1S. PCs have increased by factor of 10 eabout every five years. The 80960 and newest 70-MIP HP chip are almost CRAY-1S, but it will be a while before there are decent compilers. >Izumi Ohzawa >izumi@violet.berkeley.edu >
feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman) (12/05/89)
In article <1989Dec4.015422.21768@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >In article <21354@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> pff@beach.cis.ufl.edu () writes: >>personal computers ($100's). He said that NeXT encourages third party >>developers to treat the cube as a personal computer and to price their >>products accordingly. > >Good for NeXT! I always thought 'workstation' is a silly word. >NeXT Personal Computer is fine with me. Let Sun and other vendors >indulge in workstation snobbery. Pricing software using the PC model may be a good thing, but considering the NeXT a PC isn't. The words "pc" and "workstation" have certain connotations associated with them. In general (in my fertile mind, at least), a pc is a single user, single-tasking, computer, providing services primarily to the person sitting at the keyboard. It is the toaster of computers. Not that that is bad, as toasters are needed. Workstations, on the other hand, are usually multi-tasking, multi-user, networked computers, and provide services to users on the network as well as the person at the keyboard. The NeXT is a multi-user, multi-tasking workstation, which has a finely crafted user interface that can make it appear to be a toaster to those who would like to see it as such -- and a very nice toaster at that. The problem is that NeXT, itself, appears to be somewhat schizophrenic about just what their computer is. The NeXT, like other workstations, can provide many services to local as well as networked users. It can be used to send and receive electronic mail, mount and export NFS file systems, be the source and target of remote logins and file transfers, be a print server, etc. All of these powerful, important, workstation-type services require that the NeXT be turned on (obvious, eh?). The question is why, on page seven of the "User's Reference" manual, does it say "It's a good idea to turn off the computer if you don't expect to use it for a long time, such as overnight."? There is not so much as a single sentence discussing the cons of turning the NeXT off. It might be acceptable to turn off an isolated, non-networked, single-user NeXT, but that is not the environment in which most of the computers are going to be used. It is not so much that this sentence will cause the end of the world, but it is indicative of the toaster philosophy, and a much larger problem. NeXT continues to advertise electronic mail as one of the pluses of their system, and their mail app is kinda cute, but have you ever tried sending mail to or receiving mail from a system that isn't turned on? If I were trying to converse with another NeXT user on the other side of the world (or at least a few time zones away) via email, perhaps over a flakey network, and we both followed NeXT's instructions on powering down the machine overnight, the window of opporunity might be such that we never get each other's mail, or at least not get it in a timely manner. The same PC/toaster mentality is probably responsible for the fact that the NeXT won't reboot automatically after a power loss. It makes using the NeXT as a server a headache. Buy a UPS, hope that you don't have any power losses:-), or pay someone to run to around to all of the NeXTs on campus and press the power key after a loss:-). Ever try dialing into a NeXT after a power failure? I tied -- it wasn't very successful :-( And then there's security. If you lock up a toaster in a room, for the most part, it is safe. Unfortunately, the same is not true for a networked workstation. If only NeXT were directly on the Internet -- then, maybe, they wouldn't be so qucik to flag me as a security weenie. It's not just a design fault, it's a problem with the philosiphy of the computer. In their effort to hide that mean, nasty, UNIX workstation underneath, and present a nice, friendly toaster facade, NeXT has over-toasterized. This has been a point of debate between some of us and NeXT since the early days of 0.8 -- almost a year ago. From 0.8 to 1.0, some of the toaster-based problems have been removed (Thanks, NeXT!), but the philosophy still remains. I like my NeXT. I like my workstation. I like all of the people at NeXT that I have met or conversed with. Now if only they would stop treating the NeXT like a toaster. ... >Izumi Ohzawa >izumi@violet.berkeley.edu Sorry, Izumi, but you hit a nerve. Mark
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (12/05/89)
In article <5725@umd5.umd.edu> feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman) writes: >The NeXT is a multi-user, multi-tasking workstation, which has a finely >crafted user interface that can make it appear to be a toaster to those who >would like to see it as such -- and a very nice toaster at that. We think so. Especially when you've added another $6K or so to NeXT's top-of-the-line package. :-) -=EPS=- <eps@toaster.sfsu.edu>, among others I didn't name this machine. Honest.
izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (12/05/89)
In article <5725@umd5.umd.edu> feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman) writes: >In article <1989Dec4.015422.21768@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >>Good for NeXT! I always thought 'workstation' is a silly word. >>NeXT Personal Computer is fine with me. Let Sun and other vendors >>indulge in workstation snobbery. > >Pricing software using the PC model may be a good thing, but considering the >NeXT a PC isn't. > >In general (in my fertile mind, at least), a pc is a single user, >single-tasking, computer, providing services primarily to the person sitting >at the keyboard. It is the toaster of computers. Not that that is bad, as >toasters are needed. Workstations, on the other hand, are usually >multi-tasking, multi-user, networked computers, and provide services to >users on the network as well as the person at the keyboard. Yes, I know that is the usual definition, but to me ANY computer that is primarily used by one person at a time IS a personal computer. Most of the Apps which make NeXT unique; WriteNow, Mathematica with front end, Edit, Mail, FrameMaker, WorkSpace Manager can be used by only one person at the console. For these applications, NeXT is single-user. So are Suns, Decs as far as the nice windowing applications are concerned. Thus, they are personal computers. FTP, NFS, rlogin, mail services don't count as multi-user to my eyes. I just said the above in the context that computers for the 90's will all be multi-tasking, and in the hope that this funny word "workstation" will go away by then. >The question is why, on page seven of the "User's Reference" manual, does it >say "It's a good idea to turn off the computer if you don't expect to use it >for a long time, such as overnight."? There is not so much as a single I completely agree with you on this. I suppose they were just unsure about the reliability of the hard disks with the continuous operation. I take it that the above statement is targeted only for users who use it as a stand-alone machine. Izumi Ohzawa izumi@violet.berkeley.edu
chari@nueces.cactus.org (Chris Whatley) (12/06/89)
izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >In article <5725@umd5.umd.edu> feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman) writes: >>In article <1989Dec4.015422.21768@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >Yes, I know that is the usual definition, but to me ANY >computer that is primarily used by one person at a time IS >a personal computer. >Most of the Apps which make NeXT unique; WriteNow, Mathematica with >front end, Edit, Mail, FrameMaker, WorkSpace Manager can be used >by only one person at the console. >For these applications, NeXT is single-user. >So are Suns, Decs as far as the nice windowing applications are >concerned. Thus, they are personal computers. >FTP, NFS, rlogin, mail services don't count >as multi-user to my eyes. Exactly what aspect of the NeXT's application set is not multiuser. I frequently (much to the chagrin of whoever is using the console) run remote NeXT apps on a local NeXT (ever heard of the '-NXHost' option). Of course, with any decent windowing system, you can do this (X for instance). Also, the school's encore I use does not have a windowing console and the only people who use it usually rlogin to it. If there are 500 people on at any given time(ftp-ing, reading files on NFS mounted filesystems and reading mail perhaps), I think it quaifies as multi-user just like a NeXT qualifies as multi-user when there are two people using it. -- Chris Whatley Work: chari@pelican.ma.utexas.edu (NeXT Mail) (512/471-7711 ext 123) Play: chari@nueces.cactus.org (NeXT Mail) (512/499-0475) Also: chari@emx.utexas.edu