jaz@abvax.UUCP (Jack A. Zucker) (11/30/89)
Since I am interested in doing software development on the NeXT platform, I've been following this thread with particular interest. I've got a question: Has anyone bought a system from Businessland or are most of you NeXT users college students, etc. The Businessland in Cleveland, OH, has not sold a single machine to my knowledge. When comparing price, everyone keeps mentioning the educational price of $6500. Note that most people must pay $10,000 for the machine. I personally feel that Businessland may have a hard time selling a machine to a personal user who has the knowledge that his buddy can get a NeXT computer and printer for $5000.00 less than he can. jaz@calvin.icd.ab.com
kdp9565@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Keith D. Perkins) (11/30/89)
In article <964@abvax.UUCP> jaz@abvax.UUCP (Jack A. Zucker) writes: >Has anyone bought a system from Businessland or are most of you NeXT users >college students, etc. The Businessland store in Houston has sold some, I've heard. In fact Compaq supposibly bought 10 NeXT's. I've heard it's their policy to buy new machines, but I'm hoping that this means that some company besides IBM is thinking about licensing the NeXTstep. I'm also hoping that when the new NeXT comes out, NeXT corp. will drop the Businessland price of the old model to the $6500 range. About whether the NeXT will sell or not, it depends on a lot of factors. IMHO, the biggest obsticle to overcome is the compatibility problems. If the NeXT had a DOS or MAC window that it could open and run those operating systems programs, it would sell a lot better. It is hard for a company that has sunk some untold tens of thousands of $'s into systems and software to justify buying a computer that has limited compatibility at best with their old systems. There are still a lot of computers out there that are not connected to any form of LAN network, and this means transfering a program or document between two computers still is fastest by way of a floppy disk. The only way currently for the NeXT to transfer files is either by modem or Ethernet, both of which are rather hard ways for an unschooled novice (ie: a secretary) to transfer files. Luckily, Unix, DOS, and the MAC systems are currently in a state of flux. In DOS there is DOS 4.0, Microsoft Windows 3.0, and OS/2. Variations abound depending on the hardware and options added to the OS. The MAC's movement t7.0 is going to be interesting. The movement from Postscript, the necessity of 2MB of RAM, and the changing of the adressing system is going to be a pain for most developers. Unix is in the worst position, though. With everybody and their dog trying to build a GUI, the NeXT has the best chance of winning here. I have yet to read an article that has not praised the NeXT for having an outstanding interface. Unfortunatly, the interface alone won't sell the NeXT, though it might help if it gets licensed out to other companies. > >jaz@calvin.icd.ab.com Keith Perkins The University of Texas at Austin KDP9565@doc.cc.utexas.edu
jcargill@oka.cs.wisc.edu (Jon Cargille) (11/30/89)
jaz@abvax.UUCP (Jack A. Zucker) writes: > When comparing price, everyone keeps >mentioning the educational price of $6500. Note that most people must pay >$10,000 for the machine. I personally feel that Businessland may have a hard >time selling a machine to a personal user who has the knowledge that his >buddy can get a NeXT computer and printer for $5000.00 less than he can. You may be right about the plight of Businessland. But the difference is price is only about $3000.00. $6500 is a bogus price, and schools tack on a "service" or "support" fee. ($300 - $1000) Even if you don't want/need support... Why did NeXT announce wholesale prices to the world? Inquiring minds want to know.... Are there any schools out there which don't tack on a fee? Will they sell to me long-distance? .5 :) >jaz@calvin.icd.ab.com Jon jcargill@cs.wisc.edu
jpd00964@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (12/01/89)
/* Written 10:05 am Nov 29, 1989 by jaz@abvax.UUCP in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ /* ---------- "Who will buy the NeXT" ---------- */ >Since I am interested in doing software development on the NeXT platform, >I've been following this thread with particular interest. I've got a question: >Has anyone bought a system from Businessland or are most of you NeXT users >college students, etc. The Businessland in Cleveland, OH, has not sold a >single machine to my knowledge. The Businessland in Chicago has sold at least two machines to doctors. Besides them, I don't think I have heard of anyone else buying machines. I am also working on software, but as mine is medical in nature, I am happy that doctors are buying them. >When comparing price, everyone keeps >mentioning the educational price of $6500. Note that most people must pay >$10,000 for the machine. I personally feel that Businessland may have a hard >time selling a machine to a personal user who has the knowledge that his >buddy can get a NeXT computer and printer for $5000.00 less than he can. The same is true for Macintosh, IBM, and Zenith though. Education discounts do provide a very large incentive for young soon-to-be professionals to learn a machine. Taking the machine with them to their future places of business. On this line, though, I have heard rumors of upcomming legislation to prevent educational discounts. /* End of text from uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ Michael Rutman SoftMed
jcargill@oka.cs.wisc.edu (Jon Cargille) (12/01/89)
jcargill@oka.cs.wisc.edu (Jon Cargille) writes: >$6500 is a bogus price, and schools >tack on a "service" or "support" fee. ($300 - $1000) Even if you >don't want/need support... Ok, Ok...... I've received a couple of well written and rather convincing semi-flames, and I take it all back... Thanks for being gentle. :) I guess I feel that I need a lot less support than a "typical" user. But now that you mention it, receiving software updates, ROM upgrades, 40M accelerators, and bus driver chips does sound good.... :) Not that I couldn't install any of these myself, but I guess it was NeXT that made the decision to establish this distribution channel to keep their own costs down, and that's the way it's gonna be for a while. Universities can't help but incur some overhead in acquiring and selling the machines, and they can't be expected to hire personnel and buy machines without recouping their losses somehow. >Why did NeXT announce wholesale prices to the world? Inquiring minds >want to know.... I think this is the real problem.... As a student who has been saving for about a year toward buying a NeXT, I was not happy to learn that I needed to find another $400-$500 somewhere. And when I'm ready to buy, they'll probably announce the next NeXT, and then I'll want it and have to start saving again! Apologies to anyone I offended.... I think I just needed to gripe. :) Jon Cargille jcargill@cs.wisc.edu
rca@brunix (Ronald C.F. Antony) (12/01/89)
>this means transfering a program or document between two computers still >is fastest by way of a floppy disk. The only way currently for the NeXT Dayna corp. is shipping the beta version of it's floppy drive to developers in about 2 weeks, they expect to ship it to the public pretty soon next year... next year hopefully is a NeXT year, after all NeXT was announced as the computer of the 90's... Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - Bernhard Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@cogsci.bitnet
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/02/89)
In article <246300069@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> jpd00964@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > >/* Written 10:05 am Nov 29, 1989 by jaz@abvax.UUCP in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ >/* ---------- "Who will buy the NeXT" ---------- */ >>Since I am interested in doing software development on the NeXT platform, >>I've been following this thread with particular interest. I've got a question: >>Has anyone bought a system from Businessland or are most of you NeXT users >>college students, etc. The Businessland in Cleveland, OH, has not sold a >>single machine to my knowledge. > >The Businessland in Chicago has sold at least two machines to doctors. Besides >them, I don't think I have heard of anyone else buying machines. I am also >working on software, but as mine is medical in nature, I am happy that doctors >are buying them. > >>When comparing price, everyone keeps >>mentioning the educational price of $6500. Note that most people must pay >>$10,000 for the machine. I personally feel that Businessland may have a hard >>time selling a machine to a personal user who has the knowledge that his >>buddy can get a NeXT computer and printer for $5000.00 less than he can. > >The same is true for Macintosh, IBM, and Zenith though. Education discounts do >provide a very large incentive for young soon-to-be professionals to learn a >machine. Taking the machine with them to their future places of business. >On this line, though, I have heard rumors of upcomming legislation to prevent >educational discounts. It's about time the law was changed on this. One of the things that REALLY pisses off a dealer is when the local college sells 3,000 machines BELOW THE DEALER'S COST to students -- and the dealer gets stuck supporting those units. Some of those, inevitably, find their way into the grey market and outside of the university. The result of this? Ask the dealers in Ann Arbor, MI. More than a couple have gone out of business in the last couple of years due to the U of M's "Truckload sales". Happens every year. This is not good folks. Remember, this isn't like signing a dealer on -- the universities are literally opening up the backs of Semi Trailers and selling the machines off the loading docks! Support and service? That's for the local dealers to provide (free, of course, since the system does come with a warranty!) The law is rather explicit in this regard. If I sell you 500 systems for resale at $4,000 each, and someone else with identical service, support and sales expertise in the same geographic area comes to me and wants to buy 500 systems for resale, I better not charge him $5,000 each -- or I may end up in court. Sure, the burden of proof is on the (screwed) purchaser. But more and more, the dealers are obtaining that proof, and pressing their points home. I've no complaint with a manufacturer selling a university systems at a great discount for >internal use<. What gets to me and others is when manufacturers sell direct to the students of that college, through some under-the-table agreement with a college, systems for their own personal use -- below the cost at which any other dealer or distributor could obtain them. IBM, Zenith, Apple and others have been doing this for years. In fact, some people argue that these companies are selling to the students >below cost<! What the companies are trying to do is build brand loyalty while the kids are in school -- so they'll take that loyalty with them when they graduate, and hopefully populate businesses with those same machines. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 566-8911], Voice: [+1 708 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
emv@math.lsa.umich.edu (Edward Vielmetti) (12/02/89)
In article <1989Dec1.232137.11584@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes:
One of the things that REALLY pisses off a dealer is when the local college
sells 3,000 machines BELOW THE DEALER'S COST to students -- and the dealer
gets stuck supporting those units. Some of those, inevitably, find their
way into the grey market and outside of the university.
The result of this? Ask the dealers in Ann Arbor, MI. More than a couple
have gone out of business in the last couple of years due to the U of M's
"Truckload sales". Happens every year.
This is not good folks. Remember, this isn't like signing a dealer on
-- the universities are literally opening up the backs of Semi
Trailers and selling the machines off the loading docks! Support and
service? That's for the local dealers to provide (free, of course,
since the system does come with a warranty!)
This topic has been thoroughly hashed out at Michigan in a local
conference, with participation by both U people and some dealers.
Here's some summary of stuff here. Remember, we're not selling NeXT
machines by the truckload (ha! we're barely selling any at all!) --
these systems are Macs, Zeniths, and IBMs.
When you purchase $6.3 million and sell it in a weekend you hope to
get a pretty reasonable volume discount. Probably a better volume
discount than a typical dealer order. You should also expect some
nice treatment from the vendor and some extra work on their part.
I seriously doubt whether the dealers in this town could push that
much gear in a weekend without some help from the University (let's be
real folks, not a chance). The Engineering School gets similar
purchasing power by doing outrageous things like buying 760MB SCSI
drives by the gross.
You've got to remember in a competetive market there are companies
that make it and companies that lose. I would expect a few computer
dealers to go belly up every year in this town, and a few others to
take their place. The U doesn't sell every imaginable computer
peripheral, piece of software, cable, modem, floppy disk etc etc.
Here's the income statement from Computer Kickoff '88. Note the
$81,000 figure as "dealer payments" -- several dealers that
participate in this $6.7 million dollar sale get compensated for their
effort to the tune of about 1% of net sales, or about 20% of gross
income.
& RESPOND, FORGET, OR PASS:
157
Nov30/89 18:55
902:157) Tom Diroff:
computer kickoff 88 income statement
net sales (less sales tax) 6765602.35
less cost of goods sold 6364997.59
gross income 400604.76
operating expenses
dealer sto payments 81000.00
crc support fees 50000.00
itd salary & fringe benefits 50000.00
hardware 13851.98
food&beverage 6837.58
advertising 4842.16
space rental & renovation 1946.40
security 1446.25
supplies, carts 1284.57
itsc setup fees 1250.00
total itd operating exp 212458.94
p&cs order processing 43298.50
stores event planning 16500.00
stores material handling 16110.00
stores material reconciliation 5000.00
stores after sale pickup 2350.00
stores system support 5584.00
stores order processing 2811.50
incremental event labor 2671.00
Mac technics fees 2500.00
printing 19158.89
postage 5327.28
coliseum rental 9875.86
coliseum renovation 1138.19
euipment rental 2096.89
dsc chrges 1925.94
supplies 1923.00
- - - - -
Nov30/89 18:55
902:158) Tom Diroff:
trash removal 1240.00
high low rental 997.50
phone service 843.47
insurance 700.00
space rental 135.00
total stores 98889.36
total operating expenses 354646.80
net gain 45957.96
- - - - -
Nov30/89 22:57
902:159) Charlie Clark: Thanks for entering this Tom. Do you think that this
shows that the U does make full cost recovery on this sale, or doesn't (ie
are there more than 46k of unrecovered costs to be found?) dennisg@kgw2.UUCP (Dennis Glatting) (12/02/89)
In article <964@abvax.UUCP>, jaz@abvax.UUCP (Jack A. Zucker) writes: > Since I am interested in doing software development on the NeXT platform, > I've been following this thread with particular interest. I've got a question: > Has anyone bought a system from Businessland or are most of you NeXT users > college students, etc. i'm doing a redundant global satellite system using two NeXTs which are geographically dispersed. i bought two from the cincinnati BuisnessLand. i can accept your critizm that they cost too much, but in my case i was desperate. the cost of the hardware was very small compared to the dollars i was loosing in inactive programmer time. as for my system i four satellite transceiver to communicate with. three of them directly. the NeXT with its threads is a good solution, although it isn't real-time. my only real problem i've had so far is: 1. lack of coordination in the documentation area. we're constantly having to try things to determine their effect. also we have to tear through the stuff in /usr/include to find things, like what's the difference between port_t and port_name_t. 2. Objective-C. i not sure whether to critize the language (which is very easy to do) or its implementation. perhaps it wouldn't be such a pain if i took the developer class (i suspect it might no have made a difference). of the twenty some tasks we have to write, only three interface with the operator, therefore our O-C is minimal. things are progressing well, although not as well as i had anticipated. bottom line---i'd use the NeXT platform again with no reservations. threads make it better than a Sun. ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+== ..umbc3.umbc.edu!tron!kgw2!dennisg + Dennis P. Glatting + Xetron Corporation + Cincinnati, Ohio + I want my own NeXT, 16 MB RAM, + 660 MB SCSI, NeXT Printer. + Accepting Donations. ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==
amthor@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Geoffrey Amthor) (12/02/89)
In article <1989Dec1.232137.11584@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >In article <246300069@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> jpd00964@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >> >>/* Written 10:05 am Nov 29, 1989 by jaz@abvax.UUCP in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ >>>When comparing price, everyone keeps >>>mentioning the educational price of $6500. Note that most people must pay >>>$10,000 for the machine. I personally feel that Businessland may have a hard >>>time selling a machine to a personal user who has the knowledge that his >>>buddy can get a NeXT computer and printer for $5000.00 less than he can. >> >>The same is true for Macintosh, IBM, and Zenith though. Education discounts do >>provide a very large incentive for young soon-to-be professionals to learn a >>machine. Taking the machine with them to their future places of business. > >>On this line, though, I have heard rumors of upcomming legislation to prevent >>educational discounts. > >It's about time the law was changed on this. > >One of the things that REALLY pisses off a dealer is when the local college >sells 3,000 machines BELOW THE DEALER'S COST to students -- and the dealer >gets stuck supporting those units. Some of those, inevitably, find their >way into the grey market and outside of the university. > >The result of this? Ask the dealers in Ann Arbor, MI. More than a couple >have gone out of business in the last couple of years due to the U of M's >"Truckload sales". Happens every year. > >This is not good folks. Remember, this isn't like signing a dealer on -- the >universities are literally opening up the backs of Semi Trailers and selling >the machines off the loading docks! Support and service? That's for the >local dealers to provide (free, of course, since the system does come with a >warranty!) > >The law is rather explicit in this regard. If I sell you 500 systems for >resale at $4,000 each, and someone else with identical service, support and >sales expertise in the same geographic area comes to me and wants to buy 500 >systems for resale, I better not charge him $5,000 each -- or I may end up >in court. Sure, the burden of proof is on the (screwed) purchaser. But more >and more, the dealers are obtaining that proof, and pressing their points home. > >I've no complaint with a manufacturer selling a university systems at a >great discount for >internal use<. What gets to me and others is when >manufacturers sell direct to the students of that college, through some >under-the-table agreement with a college, systems for their own personal >use -- below the cost at which any other dealer or distributor could obtain >them. IBM, Zenith, Apple and others have been doing this for years. In >fact, some people argue that these companies are selling to the students >>below cost<! > >What the companies are trying to do is build brand loyalty while the kids >are in school -- so they'll take that loyalty with them when they graduate, >and hopefully populate businesses with those same machines. > >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) >Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 566-8911], Voice: [+1 708 566-8910] >Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price" Well, let's all throw out the baby with the bathwater. Clearly the situation is not ideal; universities should not be able to sell truckloads of computers and then expect local dealers to handle support and service. But your solution of banning discounted sales to students and faculty is far more damaging than the problem. Students now pay up to $20,000 a year for some of the better private universities. Students now entering those schools can expect to lay out as much as $100,000, including expenses, for a Bachelor's degree. Sure, some of the poorest kids get financial aid, but most families are savaged. And the situation's getting worse. One of the best ways a university can prepare a student for the world is by making sure that he/she is computer literate. That's more than just typing in term papers on the campus VAX. That's having a computer of their own, and learning all possible applications and learning how to program. You're never going to get that kind of commitment out of students unless they get some kind personal link to their machines. Witness what the Mac did to personal computing. But where are they going to find the money? There's a similar situation with faculty. Sure, computer science Ph.D.'s know what a computer can do for them, but how are you going to convince the humanities faculty that they can get a lot out of computers? Most faculty I know aren't rolling in money, and a NeXT at $10,000 is a pretty staggering investment. A NeXT at $6,500-$7,000 is also a pretty staggering investment, but you're lowering the risk and making it a lot more accessible. Furthermore, once a university makes a commitment to promoting personal computer use, you can get the benefits of volume. You get network faculty offices, libraries, and dorm rooms. For a machine like the NeXT, the potential benefits are tremendous. That fancy electronic voice mail is useless without a lot of NeXTs around. That "world on a disk" concept doesn't get you far without a lot of machines around campus to plug into. A good university computer policy doesn't just open up semi-trucks and send the users scurrying to dealers for support. It should have the following components: 1. Significant discounts below retail. 2. Finanical aid available for the truly poor students, so that you don't get a situation where only the rich kids get the boxes. 3. Interest-free loans available to anybody who needs them, so that students or faculty can pay off their machines over several years (but before graduation). 4. Strict limitation of discounts to students and faculty. 5. Strict "one machine per student/faculty" policy; if a student or faculty member wants a new machine, he/she must sell the old one back to the university for fair market value--and that machine will be sold again used. 6. Large enough margins added to the vendors' wholesale price so that the university can handle service and support. That means no $6500 NeXT machines; $7,000 sounds about reasonable. Students should be directed to go to the *university* for both support and service. Yes, that means the university has to hire technicians, but that's the price of privilege. If service is given during the warranty period, the university should be reimbursed by the computer vendor just as any dealer would be. 7. Direct mailings to student families and to faculty, explaining the university's computer policies and endorsing the use of computers. A lot of parents may see a potential computer purchase as an expensive whim cooked up by their son or daughter. This misconception needs to be cleared up. 8. Monthly trade shows offered at the expense of computer vendors. These shows help to drum up interest and makes vendors accessible to students and faculty. 9. Network installed all across campus. Students should be able to plug in from their dorm rooms, faculty from their office, and anybody with a disk should be able to plug into a variety of machines at public access areas. In sum, universities should make it as easy as possible for students and faculty to obtain computers, without offloading service and support to dealers. I don't buy the argument that dealers have a *right* to university sales; however, I do accept that dealers shouldn't be expected to pick up the shit work. Perhaps this could be legislated: in order to be eligible for a discounting program, any given university would have to put in place adequate support and service. But to deny all discounts would be taking a sledgehammer to the the problem, doing a disservice to students, faculty, and to the country as a whole. As the gap between skilled job vacancies and qualified applicants widens, it is suicidal to deny tools to the very people who need them to improve themselves.
joe@mathcs.emory.edu (Joe Christy) (12/03/89)
In article <235@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> amthor@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu.UUCP (Geoffrey Amthor) writes: (includes a lot of previous articles that you've read by now, and then addresses some of the issues of educational discounts. ... finally, summarizing, he says:) >adequate support and service. But to deny all discounts would be taking >a sledgehammer to the the problem, doing a disservice to students, faculty, >and to the country as a whole. As the gap between skilled job vacancies and >qualified applicants widens, it is suicidal to deny tools to the very people >who need them to improve themselves. To bring this back to bear on the complaints about dealers supplying service: one of the reasons service is such a problem for dealers is massive ignorance. They are swamped by users who have only the vaguest idea about how any aspect of their computer works. Generally the distressed user is refered to a technician who has only marginally greater command of the facts. Think how much easier the service people's life would be if they didn't have to ascertain whether the power switch was turned on, where the write protect tab on the diskette was, etc. Think how much less frustrating the user's life would be if they didn't have to buy a computer from a salesman who told them that they wouldn't need a spreadsheet if they had Mathematica, or have their machine serviced by a person who doesn't understand what stresses can cause a power supply to fail repeatedly? Now how are you going to EDUCATE people and eliminate these problems? Doesn't it make sense to invest in giving people who are interested in learning easy access to sophisticated computers? -- Joe Christy | joe@mathcs.emory.edu | Time flies like an Emory University | {decvax,gatech}!emory!joe | arrow, fruit flies Dept of Math and CS | joe@emory.bitnet | like bananas. Atlanta, GA 30322 | Phone: (404) 727-7956 |
rca@brunix (Ronald C.F. Antony) (12/03/89)
I guess you have no idea what you are talking about! If I study at Brown and have to pay for school and living 30000$ a year, then do you think I will go and pay a dealer his living? If I earn my living with the use of my computer and software, then I should let live others, i.e. dealers. But if I have only to pay, in order just to get a good education then NEVER DO I EVEN THINK OF SUPPORTING A DEALER WITH A SINGLE CENT! You should be happy with these sales, because it builds up the customer base of the next generation. Besides that, there are agreements concearning support. Why, please, do you think do students have to pay 7000$ + sales tax for a NeXT which sells for 6500$ to the university, if not for support? In a time when the cost of a good education skyrocket, it is COMPLETELY OUT OF PLACE to rally against student rabbates? After all, it is the industry and the bussinesses which need qualified employees. If you want to ruin the US economics, then just go on in this direction. You can be sure that in a few years you will have to pay much more for the education of your employees than you loose with sales because of student rabbates. I advise anyone never to buy stuff at your place! Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - Bernhard Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@cogsci.bitnet
edwardm@hpcuhc.HP.COM (Edward McClanahan) (12/05/89)
Karl Denninger responds: > >On this line, though, I have heard rumors of upcomming legislation to > prevent educational discounts. > It's about time the law was changed on this. > One of the things that REALLY pisses off a dealer is when the local college > sells 3,000 machines BELOW THE DEALER'S COST to students -- and the dealer > gets stuck supporting those units. Some of those, inevitably, find their > way into the grey market and outside of the university. > The result of this? Ask the dealers in Ann Arbor, MI. More than a couple > have gone out of business in the last couple of years due to the U of M's > "Truckload sales". Happens every year. > This is not good folks. Remember, this isn't like signing a dealer on -- the > universities are literally opening up the backs of Semi Trailers and selling > the machines off the loading docks! Support and service? That's for the > local dealers to provide (free, of course, since the system does come with a > warranty!) Wait a minute... I realize that "support and service" takes time. And, that "service" is often not billed to the customer because they have a warranty. But I think you are missing something here... Consider the case of an Auto Dealer Service Department. They do not insist that you bought your car at their dealership in order to get warranty service. Of course, they would like that to be true (so they make money there, too). But when a dealer's service department does warrenty work on my car, they simply bill the manufacturer. The best example I can remember is when my '84 Fiero was "recalled". I bought the car in Southern CA and now live in the Bay Area. No, I didn't have to take the car 400 miles to be worked on. I wasn't even asked. In fact, GM kindly suggested a dealer close to where I now live to do the work (probably around $2500 on my car, others had entire engines replaced). Admittedly, one reason shops don't like to do warranty work is because the manufacturer doesn't pay them as much per hour as the lowly customer. Thus, if the warranty work prevents the shop from doing non-warranty service (where they make more money), they might mind. I don't view a service station (or computer retailer) getting additional customers (that they get paid to service by either the manufacturer or the customer) to be a bad thing. If a shop can't handle the demand, they are missing a great opportunity. They name of the game is VOLUME, remember? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Edward McClanahan Hewlett Packard Company Mail Stop 47UE -or- edwardm%hpda@hplabs.hp.com 19447 Pruneridge Avenue Cupertino, CA 95014 Phone: (408)447-5651
cyliao@eng.umd.edu (Chun-Yao Liao) (12/05/89)
Does anyone knows if there is anyway to turn off the speaker but still can control volume of headphone? I like to listen music while working on the NeXT, but don't want to disturbe anyothers in the computer room. Any idea? Thank in advance to whoever helps -- _____________________________________________________________________________ | "When is a revolution legal? When it |Chun Yao Liao +++ cyliao@wam.umd.edu| | succeeds." -August Strindberg | The Oriental from Argentina! | |___________Don't we need a revolution on the computer technology?____________|
eht@f.word.cs.cmu.edu (Eric Thayer) (12/06/89)
In article <132@kgw2.UUCP> dennisg@kgw2.UUCP (Dennis Glatting) writes: >1. lack of coordination in the documentation area. we're constantly > having to try things to determine their effect. also we have to > tear through the stuff in /usr/include to find things, like what's > the difference between port_t and port_name_t. > I'll second this one. I have been trying to write a ScrollView which will take multiple ClipViews and have multiple vertical Scrollers. I'm using it to display data time aligned with a sound (for checking DSP algorithms, etc. Also, you could build a ScrollingSound which uses several lines to display the sound with this class. I've had to write a number of prototype programs to test out things which were either unclear or lacking in the documentation. I know this has slowed progress, but nevertheless, things are progressing well. -- Eric H. Thayer School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon (412) 268-7679 5000 Forbes Ave, Pittsburgh, PA 15213
walters@chance.uucp (Chris Walters) (12/06/89)
In article <21632@ut-emx.UUCP> kdp9565@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Keith D. Perkins) writes: > > About whether the NeXT will sell or not, it depends on a lot of >factors. IMHO, the biggest obsticle to overcome is the compatibility >problems. If the NeXT had a DOS or MAC window that it could open and >run those operating systems programs, it would sell a lot better. IMHO, a NeXT supported X Windows implementation would also help. -- Chris Walters, MITRE McLean
izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (12/07/89)
>In article <21632@ut-emx.UUCP> kdp9565@walt.cc.utexas.edu >(Keith D. Perkins) writes: >> >> About whether the NeXT will sell or not, it depends on a lot of >>factors. IMHO, the biggest obsticle to overcome is the compatibility >>problems. If the NeXT had a DOS or MAC window that it could open and >>run those operating systems programs, it would sell a lot better. I don't know. I would RATHER have NeXT spend their time to develop better native NeXT applications than have them screw around with compatibility window programs which are compatible 95% (or any %tage you like) at best. Seriously, does anybody actually USE such things in a non-temprary manner? There was once such a thing called "Mac-Charlie" for emulating PC on Mac. Have you seen one? Amiga tried to put PC bus into their boxes. Does anybody actually have Intel processor board in their Amiga? There was once a CP/M board for PC's. I don't think these things are worth the effort, other than to keep dumb industry analysts happy. NeXT should just strive to deliver and demonstrate that they have much better Apps worth switching over to. They should, however, make these switches as easy as possible for anyone contemplating a switch. Capability of WriteNow and FrameMaker to read RTF files is great. There should be many more of these conversion utilities which are easy to use. E.g., WordPerfect to RTF converter, 1-2-3 to WingZ converter. Izumi Ohzawa izumi@violet.berkeley.edu
pff@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Pablo Fernicola) (12/07/89)
In article <1989Dec7.101853.7547@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > >Seriously, does anybody actually USE such things in a non-temprary >manner? There was once such a thing called "Mac-Charlie" for >emulating PC on Mac. Have you seen one? Amiga tried to put PC > >Izumi Ohzawa >izumi@violet.berkeley.edu There is a software emulation of PeeCee s :-) called SoftPC. This application has been ported to several different platforms (Mac and Silicon Graphics are the ones I have used). It is a complete emulation (even things like Flight Simulator and Windows ran). Best of all it is all in software. This and other emulators are usefull when the software package that you need is not available on the machine that you are using, If SoftPC was ported to the NeXT I am sure that there would be many people who would find it very useful. Pablo pff@beach.cis.ufl.edu -- pff@beach.cis.ufl.edu - Pablo Fernicola - Machine Intelligence Laboratory - UF IF YOU CARE ENOUGH TO READ SIGNATURES ... I am graduating next year and I am looking for a job. MS/BS EE, my graduate work incorporates OO-DBMS/Graphics/Robotics/AI
bruce@atncpc.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) (12/08/89)
In article <1989Dec7.101853.7547@agate.berkeley.edu>, izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: > of these conversion utilities which are easy to use. > E.g., WordPerfect to RTF converter, 1-2-3 to WingZ converter. > > Izumi Ohzawa > izumi@violet.berkeley.edu Don't make me laugh! WingZ? I think we should count ourselves really lucky if they [WingZ] ever decide to make thier peice 'o crap look like a NeXT (not Mac) application!!!!!! Bruce Henderson Ashton Tate NeXTeam -- interface KGB
33616228@vax5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU (12/08/89)
> Who will buy the NeXT? Students?
Well, in reference to that question, maybe I should give an answer.
I am one of the few undergraduates to possess a NeXT, the only one
to have bought one with his own money ($7500 via Cornell, 8mb OD only).
As far as I am aware, there is one other grad student in California
who owns a NeXT, other than from that, student reception to the NeXT's
has been cold when it gets down to the pocketbook.
Cornell has one of the largest NeXT sites, 30 or so public machines,
which is one major reason I chose to come here.
What am I using my NeXT for? Well, other than from coursework, I am
also one of the few student developers, and maybe the only idependent
student developer (I am independent of Cornell and everyone else).
I am currently finishing off a ChristmasWare program called Cassandra
which is a real-time spiffy scheduler (GUI of course). It took me over a
year to write this on my old machine, 2 months on the NeXT with IB. IB
is truly amazing. Look for it on the networks before Christmas.
Other projects (winter break projects): Voice spectrometer for
the psycholinguists and linguists out there, a Postscript-> Dot Matrix
Printer driver (god help me), and a Macintalk-like hack.
The people at NeXT (hi ali!) and at Cornell have been very good to me.
Personally, I'm glad I picked the NeXT over a toaster, though the OD
has been boggin me down a bit. Oh well, once I get my accelerator and then
my 330(dreams dreams dreams...). Sorry for my ramblings.
-------------------
Flames to /dev/null
E-mail: ac6y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (reliable)
jiro@heights.cit.cornell.edu (unreliable)
SnailMail: 238 Risley, Cornell U., Ithaca NY 14853
Voice: (607) 253-0691 Fax: (607) 253-8525jasmerb@mist.cs.orst.edu (Bryce Jasmer) (12/08/89)
In article <19657@vax5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU> ac6y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Jiro Nakamura) writes: > Well, in reference to that question, maybe I should give an answer. >I am one of the few undergraduates to possess a NeXT, the only one >to have bought one with his own money ($7500 via Cornell, 8mb OD only). I object. I am also an undergraduate and have purchased a NeXT and hard drive with my own money. There are others out there also, you are not the only one. > What am I using my NeXT for? Well, other than from coursework, I am >also one of the few student developers, and maybe the only idependent >student developer (I am independent of Cornell and everyone else). I'm a developer also (remember LockScreen? (soon to be updated for 1.0)) but you won't be seeing much from me because I have a serious lack of time. I think you will be seeing more and more students owning them soon, they are just looking for the money right now. Bryce Jasmer jasmerb@cs.orst.edu
chari@nueces.cactus.org (Chris Whatley) (12/09/89)
jasmerb@mist.cs.orst.edu (Bryce Jasmer) writes: >In article <19657@vax5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU> ac6y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Jiro Nakamura) writes: >> Well, in reference to that question, maybe I should give an answer. >>I am one of the few undergraduates to possess a NeXT, the only one >>to have bought one with his own money ($7500 via Cornell, 8mb OD only). >I object. I am also an undergraduate and have purchased a NeXT and hard >drive with my own money. There are others out there also, you are not >the only one. Ditto! I bought one (after selling my Mac II for the same price no less!). Also, in the math department at UT where I am a system administrator, there are half a dozen which are either personal machines or lab machines. The microcenter at UT has sold dozens to students and professors even though they charge $7200 for the base machine. A damn rip-off given the amount of service I require of them. Chris -- Chris Whatley Work: chari@pelican.ma.utexas.edu (NeXT Mail) (512/471-7711 ext 123) Play: chari@nueces.cactus.org (NeXT Mail) (512/499-0475) Also: chari@emx.utexas.edu
hughes@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (larry hughes) (12/12/89)
In article <1989Dec8.232717.17733@nueces.cactus.org> chari@nueces.cactus.org (Chris Whatley) writes: >jasmerb@mist.cs.orst.edu (Bryce Jasmer) writes: > >Ditto! I bought one (after selling my Mac II for the same price no less!). >Also, in the math department at UT where I am a system administrator, there >are half a dozen which are either personal machines or lab machines. > >The microcenter at UT has sold dozens to students and professors even >though they charge $7200 for the base machine. A damn rip-off given >the amount of service I require of them. > Since you sold your Mac for the same price as your NeXT, and you claim a rip-off, the question arises: did you get more support for your Mac II from the microcenter? Also, does the microcenter support any other UNIX boxes? Just curious...but if the answer to both is not "yes", this might account for some of the support cost. //=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\\ || Larry J. Hughes, Senior Programmer || hughes@silver.bacs.indiana.edu || || Indiana University || || || University Computing Services || "The person who knows everything || || 750 N. State Road 46 Bypass || has a lot to learn." || || Bloomington, IN 47405 || || || (812) 855-9255 || Disclaimer: See quote above. || \\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=//
chari@nueces.cactus.org (Chris Whatley) (12/12/89)
hughes@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (larry hughes) writes: >In article <1989Dec8.232717.17733@nueces.cactus.org> chari@nueces.cactus.org (Chris Whatley) writes: >> >>The microcenter at UT has sold dozens to students and professors even >>though they charge $7200 for the base machine. A damn rip-off given >>the amount of service I require of them. >> >Since you sold your Mac for the same price as your NeXT, and you claim >a rip-off, the question arises: did you get more support for your Mac II >from the microcenter? I bought my Mac II from a dealer and sold it to a non-student. I got oodles of support from my dealer (Mr. Micro in Dallas). >Also, does the microcenter support any other UNIX boxes? No. There are no others like the NeXT. But, they don't support the NeXT. The campus UNIX consultants do that. I don't know if any of the money I spend goes to the comp center. I would assume that it doesn't. What has my $700.00 gone for? I don't know. If it pays a consultant's salary, then fine. If it pays for the maintenance guys to swap out my two faulty opticals and change the fuse in my printer, I'd rather pay the by the hour. I don't like flat service fees like this because, as is usual, I have not gotten or asked for $700.00 worth of anyone's time. In fact, the biggest drain on the consultant's time I have asked for was help with sendmail. NeXT needs to make a config file compiler. Sendmail is hell. Chris -- Chris Whatley Work: chari@pelican.ma.utexas.edu (NeXT Mail) (512/471-7711 ext 123) Play: chari@nueces.cactus.org (NeXT Mail) (512/499-0475) Also: chari@emx.utexas.edu
jpd00964@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (12/12/89)
/* Written 4:59 pm Dec 7, 1989 by bruce@atncpc.UUCP in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ In article <1989Dec7.101853.7547@agate.berkeley.edu>, izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >> of these conversion utilities which are easy to use. >> E.g., WordPerfect to RTF converter, 1-2-3 to WingZ converter. >> >> Izumi Ohzawa >> izumi@violet.berkeley.edu > >Don't make me laugh! WingZ? I think we should count ourselves really lucky if they [WingZ] ever decide to make thier peice 'o crap look like a NeXT (not Mac) application!!!!!! > > >Bruce Henderson >Ashton Tate ^^^^^^^^^^ >NeXTeam -- interface KGB /* End of text from uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ A little professional slamming on the nets? Is this the official Ashton Tate policy or was there supposed to be a standard disclaimer? Maybe you should back up your statement with a description of dBase NeXT or Full Impact for the NeXT. Or is there another spreadsheet you are working on? Michael Rutman SoftMed
jacob@gore.com (Jacob Gore) (12/13/89)
/ comp.sys.next / jpd00964@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu / Dec 12, 1989 /
>Ashton Tate
^^^^^^^^^^
A little professional slamming on the nets? Is this the official Ashton Tate
policy or was there supposed to be a standard disclaimer?
----------
There is ALWAYS an implied disclaimer. See news.announce.newusers.
Jacob
--
Jacob Gore Jacob@Gore.Com boulder!gore!jacobchari@nueces.cactus.org (Chris Whatley) (12/13/89)
jpd00964@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >/* Written 4:59 pm Dec 7, 1989 by bruce@atncpc.UUCP in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.next */ >>Don't make me laugh! WingZ? I think we should count ourselves really lucky if they [WingZ] ever decide to make thier peice 'o crap look like a NeXT (not Mac) application!!!!!! >> >> >>Bruce Henderson >>Ashton Tate > ^^^^^^^^^^ >A little professional slamming on the nets? Is this the official Ashton Tate >policy or was there supposed to be a standard disclaimer? Maybe you should >back up your statement with a description of dBase NeXT or Full Impact for the >NeXT. Or is there another spreadsheet you are working on? Oooh dBase NeXT! I can't wait!!! That's exactly what I need on my NeXT! Barf! Chris -- Chris Whatley Work: chari@pelican.ma.utexas.edu (NeXT Mail) (512/471-7711 ext 123) Play: chari@nueces.cactus.org (NeXT Mail) (512/499-0475) Also: chari@emx.utexas.edu
bruce@atncpc.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) (12/16/89)
> >>Don't make me laugh! WingZ? I think we should count ourselves really lucky if they [WingZ] ever decide to make thier peice 'o crap look like a NeXT (not Mac) application!!!!!! > >> > >> > >>Bruce Henderson > >>Ashton Tate > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > >A little professional slamming on the nets? Is this the official Ashton Tate > >policy or was there supposed to be a standard disclaimer? Maybe you should > >back up your statement with a description of dBase NeXT or Full Impact for the > >NeXT. Or is there another spreadsheet you are working on? > > Oooh dBase NeXT! I can't wait!!! That's exactly what I need on my NeXT! Barf! > > Chris look here!!! All opinions expresses by the Interface KGB are official KGB opinion and policy! and as far as Ashton Tate is concerned.... We'd be a lot better off if we had an official policy!!!! [BTW... the thought of dBase NeXT makes me barf, too!] Bruce.. atncpc!bruce@next.com
jmann@bigbootay (Jim Mann) (12/16/89)
One thing that is going to hurt sales of NeXT in some areas is its cost. If you are a individual and trying to decide between a NeXT and a Sun (let's say) or between a NeXT and a fully loaded MAC II, the prices are competitive. However, for companies buying more than one of the machines, you can get substantial (sometimes above 30%) discounts on Suns or MACs. BusinessLand, however, says that no way, no how are they going to give discounts on the NeXT, even if you want to buy a stack of them. The NeXT does NOT compare favorably in price to a discounted Sun or MAC II, and thus they are going to lose some sales based on this.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (12/22/89)
in article <1989Dec7.101853.7547@agate.berkeley.edu>, izumi@violet.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) says: > Keywords: NeXT >>In article <21632@ut-emx.UUCP> kdp9565@walt.cc.utexas.edu >>(Keith D. Perkins) writes: > Amiga tried to put PC bus into their boxes. Does anybody actually > have Intel processor board in their Amiga? Actually, we succeeded. There are two different PC cards that work in Amigas, one XT compatible, one AT compatible. They aren't the fastest PC-Clone around, but they work good, run most everything, and show up in a window on your Amiga's screen. I use one at work for the one program I use regularly that I can't get for the Amiga yet, a good PAL compiler. Believe it or not, a PC clone makes a good PAL programmer. Some other folks use them, which some interface software, to drive PC-bus Truevision Targa boards from Amiga applications. It's not like _every_ A2000/A2500 owner buys one of these things, but they have been more successful than Commodore expected. And the mere existence of the board lets you check the "PC compatible" box on the P.O., which some company bean counters require. > Izumi Ohzawa > izumi@violet.berkeley.edu -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
dwi@manta.NOSC.MIL (Steve Stamper) (12/23/89)
[.. about Amiga and XT Card ..] One important aspect to the Amiga Bridgeboard card, it provides near 100% PC-XT/AT HARDWARE compatibility as well. Allowing companies/users to purchase inexpensive PC hardware for their systems. Of course you need the bridgeboard to do this and it works from the "PC Side" of things, but for some nice EPROM and single chip computer (8085 and such) programming tools it has worked out nicely, in addition there are some inexpensive PC BUS voice mail systems, and probably a lot of other things that are nice to tie into. So unlike the Mac II cards, the Amiga Bridgeboard solution brings Software & hardware compatibility to the 680X0 world, and it works fine. -Roger