phd_jacquier@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (03/09/90)
Hi, MOTOROLA has been running ads on the 68040 for a while in PC-Week and other PC magazines. The ads give the list of all the workstation manufacturers who are seemingly going to use the 68040. The list covers two pages with some of the best known names in workstations. NEXT IS NOT THERE. This does not augur well of the commitment of NEXT to put out a version of the Next with the 68040 any time soon. Does anybody know what is going on behind the scene? Thanks, Eric
gerrit@nova.cc.purdue.edu (Gerrit) (03/09/90)
In article <7910@tank.uchicago.edu> phd_jacquier@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: > >This does not augur well of the commitment of NEXT to put out a version of the >Next with the 68040 any time soon. Does anybody know what is going on behind >the scene? My sources say that NeXT is definitely working with the 68040. If you have more specific questions about the directions of NeXT, talk with your local NeXT rep. All of the NeXT reps I've dealt with know what is going on and are willing to discuss directions and products in at least some detail. I personally think that they are holding off on announcing release dates until they are positive that they will be able to make the new product available on that date. For those who haven't talked to your NeXT reps lately, though, go ask them what NeXT expects to have available in the NeXT nine months or so, especially if you are worried that they aren't competing with some of the newly introduced or soon to be introduced machines. Then add up the whole picture and see how it relates to you. gerrit
hood@cs.washington.edu (Rick Hood) (03/10/90)
>>>>> On 9 Mar 90 01:48:06 GMT, gerrit@nova.cc.purdue.edu (Gerrit) said: Gerrit> In article <7910@tank.uchicago.edu> Gerrit> phd_jacquier@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: > >This does not augur well of the commitment of NEXT to put out a version >of the Next with the 68040 any time soon. Does anybody know what is >going on behind the scene? Gerrit> My sources say that NeXT is definitely working with the 68040. Gerrit> If you have more specific questions about the directions of Gerrit> NeXT, talk with your local NeXT rep. All of the NeXT reps I've Gerrit> dealt with know what is going on and are willing to discuss Gerrit> directions and products in at least some detail. Gerrit> I personally think that they are holding off on announcing Gerrit> release dates until they are positive that they will be able to Gerrit> make the new product available on that date. For those who Gerrit> haven't talked to your NeXT reps lately, though, go ask them Gerrit> what NeXT expects to have available in the NeXT nine months or Gerrit> so, especially if you are worried that they aren't competing Gerrit> with some of the newly introduced or soon to be introduced Gerrit> machines. Then add up the whole picture and see how it relates Gerrit> to you. Gerrit> gerrit Last week I attended a two day workshop on the IB wherein our regional sales manager responded to a question about an 040 machine. Basically, he said that even if NeXT was working on such a machine, one shouldn't look for it anytime soon. Those are pretty close to his exact words. Recent press reports have estimated that NeXT's sales have been less that spectacular. I would guess that their dandy factory may have churned out quite a little inventory by now, and such statements may be designed to prop up sales (such as they are). Another comment of interest was that NeXT intends to build the best box overall, not the fastest; the best value for the money, not the cheapest. Still, it's clear they recognize that price is important. Given the agressive pricing of IBM's latest entries I would imagine 030 cubes will come down in price when 040's are available. All the more reason to discourage folks from waiting for the 040's debut. What are others hearing out there?
carlos@tybalt.caltech.edu (Carlos Salinas) (03/10/90)
hood@cs.washington.edu (Rick Hood) writes: >>>>>> On 9 Mar 90 01:48:06 GMT, gerrit@nova.cc.purdue.edu (Gerrit) said: >Gerrit> In article <7910@tank.uchicago.edu> >Gerrit> phd_jacquier@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >> >>This does not augur well of the commitment of NEXT to put out a version >>of the Next with the 68040 any time soon. Does anybody know what is >>going on behind the scene? >Gerrit> My sources say that NeXT is definitely working with the 68040. >Gerrit> If you have more specific questions about the directions of >Gerrit> NeXT, talk with your local NeXT rep. All of the NeXT reps I've >Gerrit> dealt with know what is going on and are willing to discuss >Gerrit> directions and products in at least some detail. >Gerrit> I personally think that they are holding off on announcing >Gerrit> release dates until they are positive that they will be able to >Gerrit> make the new product available on that date. For those who >Gerrit> haven't talked to your NeXT reps lately, though, go ask them >Gerrit> what NeXT expects to have available in the NeXT nine months or >Gerrit> so, especially if you are worried that they aren't competing >Gerrit> with some of the newly introduced or soon to be introduced >Gerrit> machines. Then add up the whole picture and see how it relates >Gerrit> to you. >Gerrit> gerrit >Last week I attended a two day workshop on the IB wherein our regional >sales manager responded to a question about an 040 machine. Basically, >he said that even if NeXT was working on such a machine, one shouldn't >look for it anytime soon. Those are pretty close to his exact words. >Recent press reports have estimated that NeXT's sales have been less >that spectacular. I would guess that their dandy factory may have >churned out quite a little inventory by now, and such statements may be With all the new software being developed and color by the end of 1990, NeXT sales will definitely pick up. As for the factory, NeXT does not keep an inventory. NeXT practices just in time manufacturing. >interest was that NeXT intends to build the best box overall, not the >fastest; the best value for the money, not the cheapest. Still, it's Anybody can build a fast machine. The key to using the CPU power is the user interface. NeXT has by far the best user interface on any Unix machine (read the article in MIPS). However, user interface implementation is still in its infancy. The responsiveness of interfaces such as NextStep is increasing. Just compare .8 and .9 to 1.0 on the cube. 1.0 is noticeably faster. (I hope the trend continues into later versions. It's not good to develop a dependency on the hardware.) >clear they recognize that price is important. Given the agressive >pricing of IBM's latest entries I would imagine 030 cubes will come down >in price when 040's are available. All the more reason to discourage >folks from waiting for the 040's debut. NeXT is a savvy corporation, they know that price is important. However, NeXT is a small corporation. NeXT can't afford to lower it's prices. One has to consider all the intagibles when buying a NeXT, like support (ex: the 40meg drive, and the 1 year warranty), and vision. Do the other corporations offer you a better more productive way of working with the computer? Sure you get a faster box, but in most aspects you aren't any better off than you were ten/fifteen years ago. NeXT is not merely a computer, its also a better way of computing. >What are others hearing out there? Carlos Salinas carlos@eeyore.caltech.edu NeXT Campus Consultant (Above is a NeXT account.) Caltech
maul@asic.nsc.com (Robert Maul) (03/10/90)
>>Next with the 68040 any time soon. Does anybody know what is going >> on behind the scene? > > My sources say that NeXT is definitely working with the 68040. If Gee whiz that's interesting. I recently got to ask Steve Jobs this same question at a class dinner for registered developers. He said: "68040? It's a nice number." He had the vegitarian linguini. -- Rob Maul, maul@asic.nsc.com
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (03/11/90)
In article <1990Mar10.033031.6151@spectre.ccsf.caltech.edu> carlos@tybalt.caltech.edu (Carlos Salinas) writes:
With all the new software being developed and color by the end of 1990,
NeXT sales will definitely pick up. As for the factory, NeXT does not
keep an inventory. NeXT practices just in time manufacturing.
Carlos Salinas carlos@eeyore.caltech.edu
NeXT Campus Consultant (Above is a NeXT account.)
Caltech
Where is all that NeXT software? I thought Wingz was coming out at
the beginning of the year? A few word processors, spreadsheets, and
database managers will sell alot more machines than a 68040 based
machine. The rest of the world doesn't think in Drystones!
-Mikerogerj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Roger Jagoda) (03/12/90)
In article <1990Mar10.033031.6151@spectre.ccsf.caltech.edu> carlos@tybalt.caltech.edu (Carlos Salinas) writes: > >>Gerrit> My sources say that NeXT is definitely working with the 68040. >>Gerrit> If you have more specific questions about the directions of >>Gerrit> NeXT, talk with your local NeXT rep. All of the NeXT reps I've >>Gerrit> dealt with know what is going on and are willing to discuss >>Gerrit> directions and products in at least some detail. > Well, not MOST of the ones I've "tried" to talk to. Look, I like the cube just fine. Cornell invested BIG in them early on (0.8 and more, 30+ machines from the start, now up to 55), but I have to TOTALLY disagree with Gerrit (knowledgable though he might be). Each time I press our NeXT rep on the 040 question, or OS updates, or color, or, well, ANYTHING to do with a direction from NeXT I DO NOT get any straight answers. Now, our VP of Information Technologies, is on the Academic Advisory Panel. I would think they'd tell HIM what's to come as he's under non-disclosure. Well, they haven't/won't talk to him either! It's VERY tough to convince management to invest in the NeXT long-term when we have NO idea what's the future is. Right now, NeXT is falling behind, badly. I know IB is great, but others are coming along, and, after all, NeXT is proprietary. I can't get true IB (even on the RS-6000), but I can get other prototypers for Motif and OL (the former especially important as Windows users, PM users, AND Motif users all get a familiar L&F) and there are MNAY more hands, minds, and dollars chasing those tools than are developing for NeXTStep. Right now, even with a less-friendly user-interface, we're looking AWAY from NeXT and towards Sun, DEC, and HP as they're all faster, supported MUCH better, and their sales people will tell us "the next OS release will have....there will be a hardware upgrade sometime in quarter xxxx". That's better than, "We cannot discuss un- released products at this time." Sorry, NeXT, you're gonna lose this one! >>Last week I attended a two day workshop on the IB wherein our regional >>sales manager responded to a question about an 040 machine. Basically, >>he said that even if NeXT was working on such a machine, one shouldn't >>look for it anytime soon. Those are pretty close to his exact words. > Yes, I've heard similar from our rep. Steve has put a tremendous gag order out on those poor guys...even PRIVATELY they won't talk. I know they don't want to do a Microsoft (look at Word for Windows marketing dates...ha!), but they could at least say in the works are 040, faster, more reliable OD, better OS based on newer Mach from CMU, etc. >Anybody can build a fast machine. The key to using the CPU power is >the user interface. NeXT has by far the best user interface on any Unix >machine (read the article in MIPS). However, user interface implementation >is still in its infancy. The responsiveness of interfaces such as NextStep >is increasing. Just compare .8 and .9 to 1.0 on the cube. 1.0 is noticeably >faster. (I hope the trend continues into later versions. It's not good to >develop a dependency on the hardware.) Well, yes...and no! True NeXTStep is great, but it's proprietary! Wait til you hear this! My NeXT marketing rep said that NeXT feels its competition is NOT SUn, DEC, and IBM, but Apple and the clones. Ha! No wonder their pricing is off. Hey, NeXT, no way. People are moving AWAY from MACs because they're proprietary and have little interoperability with other platforms (although, to their credit, Apple NOW puts out MAC-tcp and MAC-X which is a start). You can't use NeXTStep across a network to another machine, and DPS is still rather slow with 030@25MHz. The others Sun, DEC, etc. are not standing still in interfaces and they ARE interoperable..which is going to be the call for the '90s. People are NOT going to shell out $9000.00 (sorry, you MUST have a hard drive...16MB is close to a must to be being kind...) as a PC/MAC subsitute, that's a workstation price! Although, I can go out now and configure a clone 486, 300MB drive, 16MB RAM, SySV.4, Motif, and three good 3rd party programs all for UNDER $8000.00 if I wanted to...and with that I get COLOR and an upgrade path that is talked about along with interoperablility. NeXT, you've GOT to start listening...then TALK TO US!!! >>clear they recognize that price is important. Given the agressive >>pricing of IBM's latest entries I would imagine 030 cubes will come down >>in price when 040's are available. All the more reason to discourage >>folks from waiting for the 040's debut. Wait...NO! People are holding off on the slower 030's precisley because NeXT will NOT discuss an upgrade path (why buy a 030 machine if I'll have to pay big bucks for the upgrade!). This same nonsense launched DG when DEC didn't want to cripple sales of it's low-end machines, even though better technology was available. Talk about plans for 040 and offer retrofit upgrades for those that invest in the older technology. That's just sound business...and it's fair to boot! Heck, we debugged the old stuff for them!!! > >NeXT is a savvy corporation, they know that price is important. However, >NeXT is a small corporation. NeXT can't afford to lower it's prices. One has >to consider all the intagibles when buying a NeXT, like support (ex: the 40meg >drive, and the 1 year warranty), and vision. Do the other corporations >offer you a better more productive way of working with the computer? Sure >you get a faster box, but in most aspects you aren't any better off than you >were ten/fifteen years ago. NeXT is not merely a computer, its also a better >way of computing. No way! Sorry, like I said, Cornell invested BIG in the old technology, even at 0.8. But NeXT has dropped the ball on support. We had to FIGHT to get our 40 MB drives, and at that they were the SAME Quantum drives that Apple couldn't/wouldn't do a proper recall on after a ton failed in use. We have had almost 25% failure with those suckers, and while NeXT keeps sending us replacements, they HAVEN't been good about shipping our customers 40s. We have to keep calling them. And don't even ask about OD reliability. NeXT repair even told us once to keep a can of compressed air near the machine, to blow off the mirrors before sliding in the floptical. Yes, there's support for ya. Sony and others have pushed the state of the market to an access time of 30ms or so. I know from those who work there that Canon has even better drives (20ms). So, I asked NeXT if I could get one...you guessed it, no comments on future products. My Sun rep tells me that not only is Sun going to distribute their OS and DOCS on CD's, but that at any time, I can use 3rd party CDs as well! NeXT doesn't even ackowledge that their drives are no longer unique! The market has caught up to NeXT in that technology, it has PASSED NeXT in price/performance, and is beginning to catch up in developemnt tools and L&F. I don't see a very bright future for NeXT unless they get on the stick....NOW! --Roger Jagoda --FQOJ@CORNELLA.CIT.CORNELL.EDU --Cornell University NeXT Coordinator --<< maybe that's what did it!