silber@voodoo.ucsb.edu (06/16/89)
RE: recent remarks re: canon/next etc. : Many of us are looking for an accessible color workstation. The sparcstation-1 is accessible, but it is only 8-bit color; higher order sparcstations are 20,0000 and above! Does the net rumor mill have any filtered, considered, plausible info RE: specific specs of COLOR-NEXT system likely release date of COLOR-NEXT, likely prices (list AND educational)
bruceh@zygot.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) (06/17/89)
I would imagine that a color NeXT system would probably be 24 bit color handled by a separate card w/coprocessor. I would expect this to be arround annother $5000.00 in price. And it will probably be very impressive when it's released, but I wouldn't look for it too soon! [read next year]. -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bruce Henderson Software Engineer zygot!bruceh@Apple.COM "Sorry, Mathematica can't goon this much" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
judge@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Peter Judge) (03/28/90)
Leaving the issues of software aside for the time being (I think thatUs where NeXT has been putting most of its energies, and rightly so!) I'd like to add my two bits worth concerning the hardware platform the next NeXT might offer. There is a lot NeXT could do to spruce up its MIPS rating without using this week's hottest RISC chip. Exploit the advantages of MACH! Raw Speed and Multiprocessing Like it or not (and I don't) MIPS is a major influence on workstation purchasers. IUm getting tired of explaining the benefits of a completely object-oriented development system, rich bundled software, and so on to skeptics who then dismiss the important issues with, "yeah but a SparcStation is faster". Besides, IBM's Series 6000 machines with NeXTStep are starting to look good if your application doesn't need sound (that doesn't include me!), and I think we're all hoping that NeXTStep on the IBM will be better for NeXT than for IBM, right? I'm sure that NeXT will soon go to the 68040 and that will settle the score -- for the next six months. Then everyone else will be on their next generation CPUs (RISC or CISC, I'm not religious). What to do? How about exploiting MACH's purported ability for close-coupled multiprocessing! Put a couple of 68040s on the motherboard, call it 40 MIPS, make it optional to put 4 such boards in the machine, call that 160 MIPS and then we can get back to the important issues of software development. Why do I have to read that Compaq (!) has multiprocessing extensions to its operating system when NeXT, which has the ideal basis for such a system, is still without one? Laboratory Control: The NeXT, with its removable erasable optical disk, DSP and ability to create virtual instruments is well positioned to replace a good deal of analog equipment in the laboratory. But, there are a few omissions which prevent it from taking its rightful place there. Realtime Incorporate genuine realtime capabilities. System V R4.0 has some, AIX R3.1 will have them. But where is the pre-emptive kernel, process locking, guaranteed interrupt response time and other features necessary to control realtime processes under MACH? Nubus Hardware The Nubus was a good choice for NeXT. ItUs bus-mastering features seem well suited for sophisticated hardware and multiprocessing. How about a fully featured laboratory control board with two DSP96001s, 64-bit intelligent opto-isolated I/O, multiple timers, 16-channel 16-bit fast A-D/D-A converters. There are a whole pile of scientific applications out there that are waiting for such a device. The add-on boxes presently available to enhance the NeXTUs I/O are too single-purpose to be very useful. I can't believe that NeXT doesn't have its bus-interface chip ready yet. Are hardware manufacturers holding off until the software takes off? Why? How difficult can it be to port the designs from a Macintosh Nubus board to the NeXT Nubus board. Some re-routing, lots more form factor and a bus interface chip should make it all straightforward. So where are the boards without which many scientific applications controlling the lab must languish? Other small suggestions DSPs I second other NetLand suggestions to incorporate the DSP 96001 in the next machine. This chip eases the programming burden so sharply that itUs worth its cost. It's 40 MFLOP rating takes your breath away too (is this rating legitimate?) A 'C' compiler would be another great addition. While weUre talking DSPs, and since we have Motorola's attention, why not put two on the motherboard and dedicate one to a Postscript Engine for monochrome and/or colour and the other to DSP? Speedy MODs The MODs are great. But when I'm trying to sell its virtues to prospective clients nobody wants to compare them with the 40-80 Meg tape drive they would otherwise be stuck with, they expect them to perform like a hard disk! It would be a major improvement if the MODs sported a transfer rate which supported realtime data acquisition, e.g., sound to disk, and (of course) if they were double sided. I would choose increased speed personally. Peter Judge (judge@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca) -- =============================================== judge@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Peter Judge) ===============================================
rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) (03/28/90)
The bus chipis ready, at least that's waht they told me about a month ago, but of course #import standard.disclaimer.h At them same time i was told that NeXT has internally running some multi-processing machines, but that there are still a few minor things to be solved (e.g.: the bus chip was not ready until recently; they use simply additional motherboards, so they can't ship such a solution as ppl might try to attach multiple Megapixel Displays, which is of course too much for the power supply, etc.) They told me too, that sooner or later there will certainly be a multiprocessor configuration, after all this was one of the reasons they picked the MACH OS... Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Bernhard Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@browncog.bitnet
phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (03/28/90)
******************************************************** While this is all a wonderful discussion---and I agree with many statements (particularly the lack-of-FLOPs argument, and the fact that it is hard to sell a machine without a known upgrade path)---it is all a waste of time. NeXT does not appear to listen, nor to establish any channels to properly and productively outlet such frustrations. Heck, I don't even know if there will ever be a software upgrade at this point! We may as well go to the next point of the agenda---may that be talking about things we can do, or selling our own NeXT systems to some poor and deserving students (and I really don't want to be forced to do this). /ivo welch ivo@next.agsm.ucla.edu Anderson Graduate School of Management at UCLA
rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) (03/28/90)
In article <8127@tank.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >******************************************************** > >While this is all a wonderful discussion---and I agree with many >statements (particularly the lack-of-FLOPs argument, and the fact >that it is hard to sell a machine without a known upgrade path)---it What I think is really amusing, is the fact that a lot of companies get bad credit for vapor ware. Now NeXT is strictly quiet about its future products, and oh wonder, the same happens. Just immagine they would talk about their products, and then be late by a month... >is all a waste of time. NeXT does not appear to listen, nor to establish You can be sure that NeXT listens. They quoted one day exactly what I posted when I called tech support with the same question... >any channels to properly and productively outlet such frustrations. There are. At least for developers, and this includes probably also the academic developers, there are a few useful mail addresses to make use of, if you have suggestions. And as NeXT is listening here for sure, it is not even a waste of time, they will remember what people want. Just think of the preliminary 1.0 doc. This thing was produced in response to popular request... >Heck, I don't even know if there will ever be a software upgrade at >this point! Well if there was not, NeXT wouldn't survive that day. I guess the whole NeXT community would go amok... >We may as well go to the next point of the agenda---may that be >talking about things we can do, or selling our own NeXT systems to >some poor and deserving students (and I really don't want to be forced >to do this). > Well, selling wouldn't be the point. I guess you would have to donate them... :) >/ivo welch ivo@next.agsm.ucla.edu >Anderson Graduate School of Management at UCLA Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Bernhard Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@browncog.bitnet
rogerj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Roger Jagoda) (03/28/90)
In article <34232@brunix.UUCP> rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) writes: > >What I think is really amusing, is the fact that a lot of companies >get bad credit for vapor ware. Now NeXT is strictly quiet about its >future products, and oh wonder, the same happens. Just immagine they >would talk about their products, and then be late by a month... Well, there's another difference. When MicroSoft misses a ship date, at least customers have the previous product (an Excel or Word) which will still do their work for them. People complain only because MS promised and missed. NeXT will not disclose a DIRECTION at all. Big diff- erence! How can NeXT expect a commitment (read $$$s) from customers, if those people don't know what to expect. The difference is NOT subtle, and it is important! >There are. At least for developers, and this includes probably also >the academic developers, there are a few useful mail addresses to make >use of, if you have suggestions. And as NeXT is listening here for >sure, it is not even a waste of time, they will remember what people >want. Just think of the preliminary 1.0 doc. This thing was produced >in response to popular request... Well, produced, yes. But it was merely a compilation of what was already on-line, did not include the things still mentioned as <<to be included>> (such as NETBOOT), and it came out VERY late! As for NeXT listening, perhaps they do, however, have you noticed that Avie and Ali have stopped posting! Either they don't have time (very likely) or NeXT's gag order has extended to the nets. Too bad, that was a GREAT feature of NeXT support that really set them above the Apples of the world (i.e. the Apple CompuServ bit...). --Roger Jagoda --Cornell University --FQOJ@CORNELLA.CIT.CORNELL.EDU
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (03/29/90)
In article <9989@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, rogerj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Roger Jagoda) writes... [...] >included>> (such as NETBOOT), and it came out VERY late! As for NeXT >listening, perhaps they do, however, have you noticed that Avie and Ali >have stopped posting! Either they don't have time (very likely) or NeXT's >gag order has extended to the nets. Too bad, that was a GREAT feature >of NeXT support that really set them above the Apples of the world (i.e. >the Apple CompuServ bit...). Not really in line with the subject, but just to set the record straight: Yep, Avie and Ali do (did ?) a great service. But not different at all from Apple: if you check out comp.sys.mac or comp.sys.mac.programmer you'll find it loaded with helpful postings from Apple folk. And they ain't bean-counters either: the MPW product manager is regularly on, as are Apple DTS, and sometimes folk from the Advanced Tech Group. And (as they say on TV :->), much, much more! Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
joerg@krynos.mcs.anl.gov (03/29/90)
NeXT listens. This is neither a wild guess nor a fact know to me, but hey, comp.sys.next is free market research -- albeit slanted more towards the UNIX guy in the .gov or .edu workplaces. They have their business customers to go after too. Anyway, they listen. It seems that NeXT is trying pretty hard to not acquire the image of a "vaporware criminal". Of course, rumors get started and then someone reads it as fact, and suddenly NeXT's reputation suffers, but they can't do anything about that really. Someone made a very good point in saying that NeXT should give an idea of the DIRECTION their products are headed, if they are reluctant to discuss the actual content of their plans. The idea here is to give enough of the "spirit" of new NeXT releases that potential customers feel reassured, but to make it very clear that NeXT will not discuss the specifics of any new release or make commitments on when it will be availible to the public. That's a fine line to tread, but with careful forethought, the balancing-act could work out very profitably for NeXT. Someone else also made a good point in that all this speculation under NeXT's "gag order" is a big waste of time unless people have substantially reliable rumors. Why don't we concentrate on telling NeXT (and the rest of the NeXT software development world) what we'd like to see in the ways of hardware and software, and organize groups ourselves to write the software we want? David Joerg (joerg@alliant.mcs.anl.gov) /* I only grudgingly take responsibility for my actions, */ /* because nobody else will. (including argonne nat'l lab) */
avie@wb1.cs.cmu.edu (Avadis Tevanian) (03/29/90)
In article <9989@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> rogerj@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Roger Jagoda) writes: >As for NeXT >listening, perhaps they do, however, have you noticed that Avie and Ali >have stopped posting! Either they don't have time (very likely) or NeXT's >gag order has extended to the nets. There is no "gag order" at NeXT. We simply have a policy to not discuss future products, especially in open forums such as this. Personally, the main reason I rarely post is indeed because I am very busy --- and more importantly, this newgroup has matured to the point where many others can answer questions, and often do before I even read the original message. -- Avadis Tevanian, Jr. (Avie) Manager, System Software NeXT, Inc. avie@NeXT.COM