rbrewer@reed.bitnet (Robert S. Brewer,Box129,7771551,,7754134) (05/02/90)
In article <579@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes:
<Never mind how many 1-bit machines Sun, SGI, DEC, etc. have sold.
<I guess they can't be considered serious. Get real.
I thought SGI only made color machines...eb1z+@andrew.cmu.edu (Edward Joseph Bennett) (05/02/90)
From: eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott)
:In article <QaCr0g600UhBM1SEtC@andrew.cmu.edu> eb1z+@andrew.cmu.edu
: (Edward Joseph Bennett) writes:
:>-The Next is not revolutionary. It is very innovative but not
:>revolutionary in the sense that it completely changes the way people
:>interact with and think of computers. What Next has done is bring many
:>good features into one box. It has the power of unix and all its
:>features.
:That's exactly what it's supposed to be. We buy NeXTs
:BECAUSE they are good, cost-effective UNIX workstations.
:Beginning this fall, "UNIX literacy" will be a degree
:requirement for Computer Science majors at SFSU. Anything
:else is icing.
I think Steve Jobs would take great offense at you implying that his
Next machine is nothing more than cost effective unix box. In fact you
are really selling the Next short with a statement like that. That
however only reinforces my point (which you conviently left out) that
this is an advantage that Next had when it came out but which is quickly
slipping away. It only emphasizes that Next needs to make their next
price/performance leap soon or loose this big selling point. With the
high performance cost effective IBM risc seris and rumors of a $5000
Sparc Station 2 this summer will hurt Next. I'm not implying that they
aren't doing anything. But a few leaks or some hints would help,
otherwise people will start placing thier orders for Sparc Stations,
etc. before they here what Next has to offer.
:>-Please include a floppy drive. While its not flashy and not visionary
:>it is necessary.
:This is incredibly narrow-minded thinking. Guess what!
:You can buy an external floppy drive from a third party!
:Guess what else! You can get a PC clone with TWO floppy
:drives and an Ethernet interface for less! Guess which
:I'd rather have?
Oh Really, I guess it is incredibly narrow minded to want to be able to
want to easily be able to import software to my system. I guess it is
incredibly narrow minded to not want to drag my floptical disk to my
local Next dealer or businessland outlet everytime I want software. I
guess its narrow minded to think that not everyone is on a network where
they can get the software. I guess it is narrow minded to want to call
up a mail order place and order software on my Discover Card (The way I
buy most software now).
That third party Next floppy drive must be incredible expensive, you can
get them for most computers for ~$100-$300. Now I know pc clones are
cheap but let's get serious.
I don't think it is narrow minded to ask Next to have the option of
ordering my cube with a floppy drive.
:>- Add color. Two bit grey scale is simply inadequate for a machine that
:>wants to be a serious workstation.
:Never mind how many 1-bit machines Sun, SGI, DEC, etc. have sold.
:I guess they can't be considered serious. Get real.
How many of these machines don't have color as an option. Any serious
work station should have color as an option. Otherwise you are cutting
off a large part of your potential market (Those who do need it). And if
you need both color and monochrome you are probably go with one vendor
that can supply both such as Sun. Even though you haven't realized this
I think Next has and is close to correcting this.
:>-I don't like its architecture. You have to have the monitor plugged in
:>to run the computer. The way its set up makes third party monitors and
:>the like difficuilt.
:From a marketing standpoint I wouldn't want to see provision for
:third party monitors; when you are trying to portray your product
:in the best possible light, you don't want to let schmucks louse
:it up. When people around here see the NeXT for the first time,
:they invariably make comments about how crisp and clean the
:display is. Why NeXT would want you to subvert one of its
:hallmarks is beyond me. On the other hand, I would like to be
:able to run a "monitorless" cube--as a dedicated NFS server,
:for DSP-intense applications, or just as an available CPU on a
:network. I can do this on a Sun--just unplug the monitor and
:keyboard and serial port A becomes the console. What I need is
:a surrogate for the MegaPixel that has the audio ports, volume,
:and power controls. Maybe a few other buttons or LEDs for good
:measure, but not much else.
Maybe you wouldn't want to see a provision for third party monitors. If
the Mega Pixel display is what you need (and it is nice) for all
machines that's great. If the third party monitors are worse then you
don't have to buy them but third party options will allow more people to
configure a Next that fits their needs. This will make the Next a more
viable and credible machine. Take for instance Next machines in a
office. Wouldn't it be nice to have one hooked up to an overhead diplay
so that you can give presentations to large number of workers. One can
think of lots of situations (including yours of a file server) where a
non standard monitor or no monitor at all would be useful. Plus
competition will benefit users in the long run.
:>- General lack of software and third party hardware ( Only time will
:>tell if this gets fixed)
:I'm quite happy with what's available now, thank you.
Well I'm glad that you are happy. That is probably why you use a
Next.The Simply fact is that regardless of how nice a machine is if it
doesn't have the software you need, it is worthless and there are many
entire potential markets where Next needs software if they are to enter
them.
:>- Its slow and sluggish
:Compared to what? I've found it to provide better response time
:than just about anything else we've had here before, and it's
:certainly the best in its price range. If I want supercomputer
:performance, I have Cray time for the asking. I neither need nor
:expect it on a desktop. Once you have your cube attached to a
:network, it has very few limitations.
I won't argue that it is good for its price range (for now) but it needs
more horsepower. I guess my point would be meaningless if everyone had
unlimited cray time to network their Next to. But...
Just because you don't need or expect more power on the desktop (you
have such low expectations ) doesn't mean that many not only need but
demand more speed before they can consider the Next. If you really think
that Next doesn't need to increase their speed while everybody is you
must be out to lunch. While a 25MHz '030 isn't obsolete it is not
cutting edge these days.
:>Next doesn't have any of the three advantages I feel that would be very
:>helpful.
:No one's forcing you to buy one.
:If you think the Mac is the greatest thing in the world,
:buy a Macintosh. If you think IBM is the greatest thing
:in the world, you can buy from them too. They've certainly
:dumped enough $$$ into CMU to brainwash you into believing
:that they're the One Blue Way.
You have taken my point out of context. I mention several points that
would be helpful to establishing new machines (compatable with
standards, revolutionary design, or other product lines to support you
during the early years) Since the Next doesn't have any of these
adavantages it all the more important for Next to get its next machine
out, fix it drawbacks, and give people a hint of where they are heading.
This really had nothing to do with what machine I think is greatest or
what I would buy. Personally I feel the Cray III is the greatest but...
The original question dealt with trying to convince ones boss that Next
is a sound investment that will be around a while. I pointing out that
Next needs to get out a new machine or hint what their direction is if
they hope to convince people they are viable and a sound investment.
Just having a visionary machine won't cut.
Flame on:
Your comment on IBM giving money to CMU really demonstrates your
ignorance. Yes IBM does give CMU lots of money (maybe your jealous).
However we also recieve sizeble grants from Apple among others. In
addition CMU is one of two univerities that own stock in Next. We also
wrote the Mach (unix) operating system upon which the Next is based. So
you can see we have more of an interest in seeing Next succeed than most
people.
Anyway the IBM $$$ doesn't penetrate into the student and faculty. This
can be seen in the fact that our computer store "sells more Macs II's in
a month than They sell of all PS/2 models in a year." (this was last
year when the original MacII was the only MacII available, before the
x,cx,ci,and fx). It seems the only IBM's that show up in public clusters
are one's IBM gives us. We have lots of Sun's and Dec's as workstations
and most of the public PC's are Mac's.
: -=EPS=-
:--
:If more people thought like Ed, we'd still be stuck with punch cards.
I don't know. If the people at Next thought like you, they surely would
be doomed. It seems as if you are satisfied (25MHz, monochrome, lack of
software, etc. are all fine with you) and don't see any need for change
or progress. Industry leaders are never satisfied. If you were in charge
of the computer industry we probably would still have punch cards
It seems as if the Next fits your needs well. That's great. But if Next
is to be here 10 years from now they need to make many changes if they
are to attract a respectable market share. I'm sure they are working on
it. But they need to let the rest of know what their thinking so that
people don't sell them out prematurely.
Edbarry@joshua.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (05/02/90)
The May 1 L.A. Times has an article (pg. D7) Entitled "William Morris Buys 250 NeXT Workstations" The upshot is that the William Morris Advertising agency will buy 250 NeXT's for 2.5 Million $ this year. 78 of these are already in place in the LA and NY offices. It says they will be used to track the availability of actors, directors, and others in the entertainment biz, as well as ``improve the agency's deal making capabilities''. The rest of the 5 paragraph article just summarizes the history and slow start of NeXT---nothing you don't already know about.
eb1z+@andrew.cmu.edu (Edward Joseph Bennett) (05/02/90)
>On a related note, does anyone know why Steven Jobs has been meeting >(according to reports) with John Sculley? I believe that the original >report of this appeared in InfoWorld, but has appeared elsewhere since >then. (One even went so far as to suggest that Apple was considering >buying NeXT. That's a good one. But if Apple were to try it, NeXT >stock would be a great thing to have...) >I find the whole report hard to believe, but you never know... >-Michael I also find this hard to believe. I think if Apple is going to buy anybody, I think they seriously want Cray Research. But as you said, One never knows. It would be interesting if true. I wonder what impact it would have on both machine lines. Ed
UH2@psuvm.psu.edu (Lee Sailer) (05/02/90)
In article <11147@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>, mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Michael Thomas Niehaus) says: > > >On a related note, does anyone know why Steven Jobs has been meeting >(according to reports) with John Sculley? I believe that the original >report of this appeared in InfoWorld, but has appeared elsewhere since >then. (One even went so far as to suggest that Apple was considering >buying NeXT. That's a good one. But if Apple were to try it, NeXT When Steve left Apple, he couldn't fit a couple of orange crates full of records into his Volkswagon bus, so Sculley has been keeping them for him in his garage.
bruce@atncpc.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) (05/02/90)
I must say, as someone who pays the rent by writing NeXT software, that today's smattering of postings are quite disapointing. On one hand we have a well informed individual from JPL who wants the NeXT machine to be a SPARCSTATION. The part about how NeXT needs to turn NeXTStep into some X bastard child was really sad. The window server is slow enough right now, doesn't everyone agree? As far as reading posts like "why didn't NeXT use X, or why NeXT didn't use C++, or why NeXT didn't use a SPARC chip" are really acedemic. The fact is that NeXT is what it is, they made some choices that to some may seem wrong. But in truth only time will tell. And as far as anymore arguments from people at CMU and whereever.... Take it to E-Mail, please! I think that most people who read this think the both of you are silly. <End of flame> Bruce Henderson NeXT Interface KGB Ashton Tate
n245bq@tamunix (Keith Perkins) (05/03/90)
In article <11147@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> mithomas@bsu-cs.UUCP (Michael Thomas Niehaus) writes: >On a related note, does anyone know why Steven Jobs has been meeting >(according to reports) with John Sculley? I believe that the original >report of this appeared in InfoWorld, but has appeared elsewhere since >then. (One even went so far as to suggest that Apple was considering >buying NeXT. That's a good one. But if Apple were to try it, NeXT >stock would be a great thing to have...) > >I find the whole report hard to believe, but you never know... A reasonable guess would be that Jobs and Sculley are getting the legal details about the new NeXT worked out. Rumor and speculation have it that Jobs signed some type of agreement with apple concerning the NeXT. The last thing Jobs would want, IMHO, is apple breathing down his back about legal infringement on the Mac. Keith Perkins Texas A&M University n245bq@tamunix.tamu.edu
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (05/03/90)
In article <4aDVT9q00WBK42aFEa@andrew.cmu.edu> eb1z+@andrew.cmu.edu (Edward Joseph Bennett) writes: >I think Steve Jobs would take great offense at you implying that his >Next machine is nothing more than cost effective unix box. I didn't say "nothing more." But you have to have solid foundations. >otherwise people will start placing thier orders for Sparc Stations, >etc. before they here what Next has to offer. We're certainly guilty on that count. >That third party Next floppy drive must be incredible expensive, you can >get them for most computers for ~$100-$300. Now I know pc clones are >cheap but let's get serious. That third party NeXT floppy drive is $850. Here in the shadow of Silicon Valley, PC clones are incredibly cheap. Less than half that for brand new, decent quality. >I don't think it is narrow minded to ask Next to have the option of >ordering my cube with a floppy drive. We have some SPARCstation 1s with floppy drives. They're USELESS. We get all our software on cartridge tape. I'd be perfectly happy seeing NeXT OEM Exabytes--a $8 tape holds 2.3 GB. The drives ain't cheap compared to floppies, but they're well worth what they cost. (We paid ~$3300) >Well I'm glad that you are happy. That is probably why you use a >Next.The Simply fact is that regardless of how nice a machine is if it >doesn't have the software you need, it is worthless and there are many >entire potential markets where Next needs software if they are to enter >them. So where are the developers? It's a whole lot easier to port from a Sun to a NeXT than it is from PCs or Macs. Being binary compatible with Sun-3s doesn't hurt. If all that good software is available for "obvious competitors" why aren't commercial developers doing their damndest to ship product? We keep hearing about "no one will buy them because there's no software" and companies that "don't want to invest the effort until it's clear that the machine is going to be a success." This is really silly. Few companies have monopolies on product categories, so whichever one gets their spreadsheet (or whatever) out first is going to capture--and retain--a large piece of the pie. Sure, there will always be people who want "exact" clones of whatever ran on their CP/M system in 1980. So what. >I won't argue that it is good for its price range (for now) but it needs >more horsepower. I guess my point would be meaningless if everyone had >unlimited cray time to network their Next to. But... Funny you should mention that. See a subsequent posting. > If you really think >that Next doesn't need to increase their speed while everybody is you >must be out to lunch. While a 25MHz '030 isn't obsolete it is not >cutting edge these days. The N1000 is a low-end model, got it? Who said it was to be the last in the line? It's positioned as providing the MINIMUM capabilities anyone should expect from a workstation. >Next needs to get out a new machine or hint what their direction is if >they hope to convince people they are viable and a sound investment. >Just having a visionary machine won't cut. They said the same thing about the Lisa/Apple. -=EPS=-
velasco@beowulf.ucsd.edu (Gabriel Velasco) (05/04/90)
eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >We have some SPARCstation 1s with floppy drives. They're USELESS. Their good for putting text files, gif files and the like straight onto your ms-dos disketts to take home. Their also good for security, in case you don't want anyone at all to have access to confidential information. ________________________________________________ <>___, / / | ... and he called out and said, "Gabriel, give | /___/ __ / _ __ ' _ / | this man an understanding of the vision." | /\__/\(_/\/__)\/ (_/_(/_/|_ |_______________________________________Dan_8:16_|