daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) (06/06/90)
When NeXT first came out with point-and-click to focus (i.e., to make a window come to the front and become the key window requires you to move the cursor onto the window and press the mouse button), there was a lot of screaming and gnashing of teeth from Sun and Mac users, who were used to just pointing at a window and banging on the keys. Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. So Steve is still helping design Apples! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter C. Daugherity Internet, NeXTmail: daugher@cs.tamu.edu Knowledge Systems Research Center uucp: uunet!cs.tamu.edu!daugher Texas A & M University BITNET: DAUGHER@TAMVENUS College Station, TX 77843-3112 CSNET: daugher%cs.tamu.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (06/06/90)
In article <5635@helios.TAMU.EDU> daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes:
When NeXT first came out with point-and-click to focus (i.e., to make a
window come to the front and become the key window requires you to move the
cursor onto the window and press the mouse button), there was a lot of
screaming and gnashing of teeth from Sun and Mac users, who were used to
just pointing at a window and banging on the keys.
Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due
out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus.
So Steve is still helping design Apples! :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter C. Daugherity Internet, NeXTmail: daugher@cs.tamu.edu
Knowledge Systems Research Center uucp: uunet!cs.tamu.edu!daugher
Texas A & M University BITNET: DAUGHER@TAMVENUS
College Station, TX 77843-3112 CSNET: daugher%cs.tamu.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
I'm one of those people that doesn't like point-and-click to focus and
think that this should be a optional. Going back and forth between
machines that use the two different methods is annoying as hell!
Apple should "steal" the better parts of the Next 8-).
-Mikerussell@acf4.NYU.EDU (Bill Russell) (06/06/90)
What are you talking about. Clicking on a window on any Macintosh from day 1 brings that window to the front. Input now goes to that window. Sun and the X window folks use the other methods. I take the Macintosh method. If the Title bar has "bars" that is where my input goes. Not where mu mouse happens to be pointing. On X windows machines with the method of where the mouse is pointing (except if it is not in the content region of a window...) Bill
anders@penguin (Anders Wallgren) (06/06/90)
In article <5635@helios.TAMU.EDU>, daugher@cs (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: >When NeXT first came out with point-and-click to focus (i.e., to make a >window come to the front and become the key window requires you to move the >cursor onto the window and press the mouse button), there was a lot of >screaming and gnashing of teeth from Sun and Mac users, who were used to >just pointing at a window and banging on the keys. I don't know about you, but this Mac user has been using point-and-click to focus since System 1.0... >Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due >out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. We are you getting this info - it's just plain wrong...the Mac interface has always been click-to-focus. anders
dayglow@csli.Stanford.EDU (Eric T. Ly) (06/06/90)
In article <5635@helios.TAMU.EDU> daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: >When NeXT first came out with point-and-click to focus (i.e., to make a >window come to the front and become the key window requires you to move the >cursor onto the window and press the mouse button), ... >Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due >out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. I must be missing something, but as I recall, Macs had the point-and-click-to-focus method ever since day one of release. I don't think 7.0 will be different in that regard. It's one of those religious issues, I believe, so NeXT may want to let the user decide via a preference panel or something. Eric Ly
bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) (06/06/90)
In article <5635@helios.TAMU.EDU> daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: >When NeXT first came out with point-and-click to focus (i.e., to make a >window come to the front and become the key window requires you to move the >cursor onto the window and press the mouse button), there was a lot of >screaming and gnashing of teeth from Sun and Mac users, who were used to >just pointing at a window and banging on the keys. Huh? The Mac uses the click-a-window-to-activate-it method. Suns don't, unfortunately, and neither do Iris workstations. I don't like having to point to a window when I want to type in it. Especially at times when there's one small window on the screen, and I type gobs of stuff (yes, I have to look at the keyboard when I type... :-P ) only to look up and find that the mouse was really pointing to some other random part of the screen, and all my typing was for naught. "There's only one friggin' window up there! Why do I have to point to it?" However, I like the fact that, on the NeXT, a window doesn't necessarily have to be in the front and completely visible to type in it. (If another application comes up and blocks your view with its window, your typing is unaffected.) I wish that the NeXT and/or the Mac would allow you to select a window a few layers down without having to bring it to the front. Nonintuitive, possibly, but useful. >Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due >out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And I could sell you some real estate in Florida... ;-) >So Steve is still helping design Apples! :-) Just wait 'till IBM gets in on the game with their Mach clones. << Brian >> -- | Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig | | Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU | Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET | ... s l o w l y, s l o w l y, w i t h t h e v e l o c i t y o f l o v e.
erica@kong.gatech.edu (Erica Liebman) (06/06/90)
Here's a REAL chuckle...
Y'know interviews? Distributed with X these days? Well, you have
to the hotspot of the cursor on top of a string-edit box to
add text, even after clicking. If you move the cursor OUT of the
string-edit box, even IN the dialog box itself, you can't enter
text. And there's a silly bug where you CAN enter text into the
active string-edit box if the cursor is pointing to ANY OTHER string
edit box. Is this dumb or what? This is of course, my humble
experience with interviews. #include<std.apologies.h> to any
real interview-weenie, but gimme IB >any day!<
Erica
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Erica J. Liebman Internet: erica@kong.gatech.edu
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
"Grep foo whilst ye may, oh daemons of the spring" -- EJLEric.Thayer@cs.cmu.edu (Eric H. Thayer) (06/06/90)
In article <13954@csli.Stanford.EDU> dayglow@csli.Stanford.EDU (Eric T. Ly) writes: > It's one of those religious issues, I believe, so NeXT may want to let > the user decide via a preference panel or something. Given the way that the NeXT is designed with respect to menus, it would be difficult to just allow focus on cursor as a preference. Think of a screen setup where there is no background path from where your cursor is to where the application's menu is. This means that you would have to potentially cross windows from other applications. As you do, you focus in turn on each window along your cursor path. By the time your cursor gets to the menu area, the menu you are interested in is long gone. However, one way to allow focus on cursor might be to force the user to enable the menu mouse button when they enable focus on cursor. This way, access to an application's menu no longer requires cursor movement. Replies may have NeXT attachments in them Phone: (412)268-7679
chari@math.utexas.edu (Christopher M. Whatley) (06/06/90)
daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: >Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due >out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. >So Steve is still helping design Apples! :-) That's how Macs have always been. The other way is stupid. Who needs to type in a window that you can't see? -- -- "I've got good news. The gum you like is going to come back in style." -- Chris Whatley - Research Systems Administrator UT-Austin Mathematics E-mail: chari@math.utexas.edu (NeXT) Ph: (O):512/471-7711 (H):512/499-0475
phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (06/07/90)
*************************************************************** While some of you wish that Apple stole the the better part of the NeXT system, I hope that NeXT will be able to steal the better part of the Apple GUI. I, for one, would love to have the option of putting the menus from the top left of the screen to a place where they consume less real estate. And, the black top-bars on applications don't use real-estate very productively. Displaying only the application name is a bit wasteful. Yes, I do really wish that I could put the main menu onto these bars---just as the Mac does. I realize that not everyone shares my point of view, so it could be optional. (And despite this disagreement with NeXT, I am very happy overall with the NeXT GUI.) /ivo welch
alexr@ucscb.ucsc.edu (Alexander M. Rosenberg) (06/07/90)
In article <5635@helios.TAMU.EDU> daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: > Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due > out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. > > So Steve is still helping design Apples! :-) I think that you've confused two issues. a) As others have pointed out, the Mac has always allowed you to click in a window to switch to it. b) Some dialogs in System 7.0 permit typing to select items in a list. Some dialogs have more than one list, or a text field that also need to be typed into. Apple uses a "focus" rectangle to indicate which list/text field receives the keystrokes. Text Fields have their text highlighted or an insertion point put in them when they are active, and lists have a thin black border added around them. Examples of this behavior are Chooser and SFPutFile. (Several other windows have focus as well.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Alexander M. Rosenberg - INTERNET: alexr@ucscb.ucsc.edu - Yoyodyne - - 330 1/2 Waverley St. - UUCP:ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!alexr - Propulsion - - Palo Alto, CA 94301 - BITNET:alexr%ucscb@ucscc.BITNET- Systems - - (415) 329-8463 - Nobody is my employer so - :-) - - - so nobody cares what I say. - -
davef@jessica.stanford.edu (David Finkelstein) (06/07/90)
In article <1990Jun6.171736.21153@midway.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >I, for one, would love to have the option of putting the menus from the top >left of the screen to a place where they consume less real estate. And, the >black top-bars on applications don't use real-estate very productively. >Displaying only the application name is a bit wasteful. Yes, I do really wish >that I could put the main menu onto these bars---just as the Mac does. Well, using Preferences you can specify where you want menus to appear -- check the monitor options. It's even possible to have the menus appear off-screen (almost) by dragging the Preferences menu as far off-screen as you can. And of course you can use pop-up menus. David Finkelstein Academic Information Resources Stanford University davef@jessica.stanford.edu
fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars P. Fischer) (06/07/90)
In article <10164@hydra.gatech.EDU> erica@kong.gatech.edu (Erica Liebman) writes: >Y'know interviews? Distributed with X these days? Well, you have >to the hotspot of the cursor on top of a string-edit box to >add text, even after clicking. Look, that was a bug. It does not happen anymore. Also note that InterViews is *free*, is one of many of options for programming X, and is constantly improved (for *free*). These guys developed some software and gave it away at an early stage in order that anyone would have a chance to contribute ideas and code. That's the way some people like to develop thing, as community projects. If you don't like it, change it or don't use it. If you don't have anything to contribute but ridicule, shut up. /Lars -- Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | NeXT: A disaster looking for a place CS Dept., Univ. of Aalborg, DENMARK. | to happen -- Bill Joy
fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars P. Fischer) (06/07/90)
In article <chari.644687849@fireant.ma.utexas.edu> chari@math.utexas.edu (Christopher M. Whatley) writes: >daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: >>Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due >>out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. > >That's how Macs have always been. The other way is stupid. Who needs >to type in a window that you can't see? What do you mean by "type in a window that you can't see"? The issue is how to decide which window takes the input when you can see more than one window at the same time. There are several options 1) the "front" window 2) the window the mouse cursor points to 3) the window last clicked in. The Mac combines 1) and 3) (the window last clicked at is always at the front (well, almost). Many systems does not have a notion of "front" or "active" window, and therefore has the choice of 2) and 3) only. None of those are "stupid", just different. Note that with 3), in *can* at times point to windows I can't see. The notion of a "front" window is really a left-over from the single-tasking nature of the Mac. /Lars -- Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | NeXT: A disaster looking for a place CS Dept., Univ. of Aalborg, DENMARK. | to happen -- Bill Joy
fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars P. Fischer) (06/07/90)
In article <28980007@acf4.NYU.EDU> russell@acf4.NYU.EDU (Bill Russell) writes: >What are you talking about. Clicking on a window on any Macintosh from day >1 brings that window to the front. Input now goes to that window. > >Sun and the X window folks use the other methods. Both SunView (I guess that's what you mean by Sun?) and X can have it either way. Your choice. >I take the Macintosh method. If the Title bar has "bars" that is where >my input goes. I like to use the point-with-the-mouse method, combined with visual highlighting of the window that currently takes input ("bars" in the title-bar or whatever). There are times where I like to force the input to stay with a specific window no matter where I move the mouse. Happily, X lets me do that with a single mouse-click. To each his own. That's (part of) the beauty of X. /Lars -- Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | NeXT: A disaster looking for a place CS Dept., Univ. of Aalborg, DENMARK. | to happen -- Bill Joy
phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (06/07/90)
In article <1990Jun6.210828.1885@portia.Stanford.EDU>, davef@jessica.stanford.edu (David Finkelstein) writes... >Well, using Preferences you can specify where you want menus to appear >-- check the monitor options. It's even possible to have the menus >appear off-screen (almost) by dragging the Preferences menu as far >off-screen as you can. >And of course you can use pop-up menus. Well, you must either have a different NeXT computer or different preferences application, or I was not clear what I wanted. Moving the menu around is pretty much useless. The menu has to be on the left-hand side because the submenus appear to its right. Moreover, the menus will still occupy a lot of space on the left somewhere, and the bar noting the application will still be empty. How do you get pop-up menus (on the bar?) ? /ivo welch
bokonon@amy4.stanford.edu (jeffrey wishnie) (06/07/90)
>I, for one, would love to have the option of putting the menus from the top >left of the screen to a place where they consume less real estate. And, the >black top-bars on applications don't use real-estate very productively. >Displaying only the application name is a bit wasteful. Yes, I do really wish >that I could put the main menu onto these bars---just as the Mac does. If by the black top-bars of applications you mean the title bar on top of windows, putting menus there could cause a lot of problems. A lot of Apps don't always have a window present (i.e. WriteNow or Frame with no documents open display only a menu) where would you put the menu then? I think Dave Finkelstein's suggestion to move your menus off screen (you can drop them so only about 3 or 4 pixels of the title bar show) and use pop up menus is a good solution. Also, some apps like Communicae and AltDoc have the option of hiding the menu. The main is then accessible only from the mouse button. Maybe more third-party developers could offer this option. jeff wishnie bokonon@portia.stanford.edu
nick@bischeops.UUCP (Nick Bender) (06/07/90)
In article <chari.644687849@fireant.ma.utexas.edu>, chari@math.utexas.edu (Christopher M. Whatley) writes: > daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: > > >Now Apple has announced that version 7.0 of the Mac operating system, due > >out later this year, will switch to point-and-click to focus. > > >So Steve is still helping design Apples! :-) > > That's how Macs have always been. The other way is stupid. Who needs > to type in a window that you can't see? > Enough already. Its a classic trade-off as far as I'm concerned. Having started on Suns got used to point-to-focus. Then I got stuck using UIS (that truly scary window systems on the Microvax before DECwindows) which is click-to-type. Then I started using X in point-to-type mode (again). Now I'm happily hacking NeXT (click-to-type), and an HP under X11R4 with twm (in point-to-type mode). Which way is better? Neither. Which is stupid? Neither. Why would anyone want to type in a window they can't see? Because its behind a big picture and they can see the one line they are typing. Besides, someone posted a neat window server hack which allows me to lower the focus window with command-downArrow on NeXT, and twm allows me to lock focus on a window. I get what I want either way. Let's talk about something interesting now. Nick nick%bischeops@uunet.uu.net
chari@math.utexas.edu (Christopher M. Whatley) (06/07/90)
fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars P. Fischer) writes: >I like to use the point-with-the-mouse method, combined with visual >highlighting of the window that currently takes input ("bars" in the >title-bar or whatever). There are times where I like to force the >input to stay with a specific window no matter where I move the mouse. >Happily, X lets me do that with a single mouse-click. >To each his own. That's (part of) the beauty of X. The beauty of X?? What planet are you from? X is a major kludge (albeit a very useful one) whose only claim to fame is its free-ness. X is about as beautiful as an IBM OS. Before you start flaming me back, I should say that I use X daily and generally like the newest release. I just consider it to be about as elegant as Ripple (Hobo wine). -- "I've got good news. The gum you like is going to come back in style." -- Chris Whatley - Research Systems Administrator UT-Austin Mathematics E-mail: chari@math.utexas.edu (NeXT) Ph: (O):512/471-7711 (H):512/499-0475
davef@jessica.stanford.edu (David Finkelstein) (06/07/90)
In article <1990Jun7.002601.4978@midway.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >Well, you must either have a different NeXT computer or different preferences >application, or I was not clear what I wanted. Moving the menu around is pretty >much useless. The menu has to be on the left-hand side because the submenus >appear to its right. Moreover, the menus will still occupy a lot of space on >the left somewhere, and the bar noting the application will still be empty. > >How do you get pop-up menus (on the bar?) ? Whoops I'm sorry, you specify Menu location under General Preferences (click on the Cube), not MegaPixel Display Preferences. The Mouse Preferences allows you to enable the Menu Button, which is either the left or right (your choice) button on the mouse. By pressing the Menu Button, the main menu for the currently active application will appear under the pointer. You can then drag down through this menu to select commands or submenus. I don't know of a way to have applications put their menus on the window Title Bar. David Finkelstein Academic Information Resources Stanford University
bruce@atncpc.UUCP (Bruce Henderson) (06/07/90)
In article <FISCHER.90Jun6224709@thiele.iesd.auc.dk>, fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars P. Fischer) writes: > > change it or don't use it. If you don't have anything to contribute > but ridicule, shut up. > > /Lars > -- > Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | NeXT: A disaster looking for a place > CS Dept., Univ. of Aalborg, DENMARK. | to happen -- Bill Joy You know, I don't think you read what your write before you post it. Remeber now, if you can.... this is comp.sys.next. Not comp.windows.x or whatever you foul tempered, pimple poping, X worshipers call it. If you don't have anything to contribute but ridicule, shut up! (to use your own dim witted phrase!). And I think that NeXT really is a disaster waiting to happen also. A disaster for X - biggots like yourself. Attacking us because you feel a little threatened is not going to do anything but hasten the day of your own doom by galvanizing people like myself. Grow A Brain Bruce
daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) (06/08/90)
In article <chari.644687849@fireant.ma.utexas.edu> chari@math.utexas.edu (Christopher M. Whatley) writes: >daugher@cs.tamu.edu (Dr. Walter C. Daugherity) writes: > >>out later this year, [Apple] will switch to point-and-click to focus. > >That's how Macs have always been. The other way is stupid. Who needs >to type in a window that you can't see? > Apparently Sun, Iris, X Window System, ..., users :-)! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Walter C. Daugherity Internet, NeXTmail: daugher@cs.tamu.edu Knowledge Systems Research Center uucp: uunet!cs.tamu.edu!daugher Texas A & M University BITNET: DAUGHER@TAMVENUS College Station, TX 77843-3112 CSNET: daugher%cs.tamu.edu@RELAY.CS.NET
mek4_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Mark Kern) (06/08/90)
I much prefer the point-and-click to focus method over the mouse in
window to focus method. Point-and-click allows me to lock onto the
window I want to use. If I want to use a menu, I can move the mouse, pull
the menu, and not have to worry about repositioning the mouse back to my
window. My pointer stays where I use it the most (for some applications)
at the menu area, and I can type without having an annonying pointer
somewhere over my text/graphic area. I don't think this method is a
limitation reflecting the single-tasking OS of the Mac. You still have to
move the cursor to the window in either method, and an additional click
doesn't bother me. If this really is a religious issue, then the best
method would be to have both available and to let the user decide.
Mark Kern
--
=========================================================================
Mark Edward Kern, mek4_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu A.Online: Markus
Quagmire Studios U.S.A. "We not only hear you, we feel you !"
=========================================================================edwardj@microsoft.UUCP (Edward JUNG) (06/08/90)
In article <1990Jun7.002601.4978@midway.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: > >Well, you must either have a different NeXT computer or different preferences >application, or I was not clear what I wanted. Moving the menu around is pretty >much useless. The menu has to be on the left-hand side because the submenus >appear to its right. Moreover, the menus will still occupy a lot of space on >the left somewhere, and the bar noting the application will still be empty. > >How do you get pop-up menus (on the bar?) ? > >/ivo welch I usually enable the right mouse button as the menu button using Preferences. This gives you a pop-up of the main menu when you hold down the button you specify (so the two buttons no longer behave identically). Preferences does not allow you to move the default menu location all the way off the screen or even such that only the title of the menu appears at the bottom of the screen. To do this, use the Shell and type the following: dwrite GLOBAL NXMenuX " 0" dwrite GLOBAL NXMenuY " 20" This puts the menu at the bottom left of the screen with only the menu title showing. To put the menu completely off the screen, change NXMenuY to zero. Edward Jung Systems Strategy/Architecture Microsoft Corporation
jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) (06/09/90)
Eric.Thayer@cs.cmu.edu (Eric H. Thayer) writes: > In article <13954@csli.Stanford.EDU> dayglow@csli.Stanford.EDU (Eric T. > Ly) writes: > > It's one of those religious issues, I believe, so NeXT may want to let > > the user decide via a preference panel or something. > > Given the way that the NeXT is designed with respect to menus, it would be > difficult to just allow focus on cursor as a preference. Think of a screen > setup where there is no background path from where your cursor is to where > the application's menu is. This means that you would have to potentially > cross windows from other applications. As you do, you focus in turn on > each window along your cursor path. By the time your cursor gets to the > menu area, the menu you are interested in is long gone. This is a good point, but it could be done. The scheme on X is simply to direct keyboard input. Therefore, I can see a NeXT environment which would place keyboard input in whatever window the mouse was placed, but a button-press would change the menus in the corner and bring the window to the front. Why do I like this? Because I start a job in one window, hit the mouse with my knuckle to another window, and perform something else while I wait. And if something in a Terminal running telnet to another machine catches my eye, I can zip to it, take care of it, and return without breaking my chain of thought. It's not worth it to have to click there and wait for the WndwMgr to bring the window to the front and redraw the corner menus, all so that I can send two keystrokes to a remote host... The only reason I don't mind the Mac interface is because I have never had to use a mac for very long whose screen was big enough for several whole windows to appear at once. There, it makes sense for a keyclick to be required, because you can't see the damned thing if it is behind the front window. But try a mac with Multifinder and a workstation-size screen. It's Drudgery, and your arm starts to hurt. Further, ever notice what happens on NeXT when you quit an application? No focus! I quit something, start typing, but nothing appears because NeXT doesn't know where to go. If focus followed the mouse, keyboard input would be directed to the right place while the other application quietly quit. There's no reason one has to watch it go. There is other focus weirdness concerning child-parent and transient windows (like the find window from the Digital Library) that I hope NeXT fixes in the next release. Really, once you get used to a focus-follow-mouse environment, you find yourself making use of much more of your screen at once. Of course, even in X you are allowed a choice, and I think that if there is one thing that NeXT should not copy from Apple, that is a hard-coded interface; allow people to suit the interface to their needs. I still remember Jobs introducing the first Macs in 1984 with no arrow keys on the keyboard because he wanted to "force" people to use mice for cursor movement. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |Jeremy Mereness | Support | Ye Olde Disclaimer: | |jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my| |a700jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software | opinions, alone. | |staff/student@Carnegie Mellon U. | | Ya Gotta Love It. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------