cbenda@unccvax.uncc.edu (carl m benda) (07/13/90)
I phoned our local BusinessLand just to see what "Retail" prices were for the NeXT machine, since our University states it has niether the time nor the resources ($$/people I assume) to support the NeXT on campus here at UNCC. This is what the current prices are for two configurations: 6955.65 -- BASE system with 256Meg optical drive an 40 Meg swapper drive. 9500.00 -- BASE model as above but with additional 330 Meg hard disk. It seems to me that I DO have a reasonable place to get a cube after all. Doesn't it cost the University 6500.00 just to stock a base cube? Let alone selling and supporting the machine to students without losing money, it seems to me that Universities need to charge somewhere around the 6955 figure anyway. Oh boy hold me back, as soon as I sell my Mod-80 PS/2 I'm running downtown!! /Carl
aks@somewhere.ucsb.edu (Alan Stebbens) (07/13/90)
In <2463@unccvax.uncc.edu> cbenda@unccvax.uncc.edu (carl m benda) writes: >I phoned our local BusinessLand just to see what "Retail" prices were >for the NeXT machine, since our University states it has niether the time >nor the resources ($$/people I assume) to support the NeXT on campus here >at UNCC. This is what the current prices are for two configurations: >6955.65 -- BASE system with 256Meg optical drive an 40 Meg swapper drive. >9500.00 -- BASE model as above but with additional 330 Meg hard disk. University pricing for the "base cube" is $4995. The 330 meg version is $6995. Basically, the BusinessLand markup seems to be about $2000. -- Alan Stebbens <aks@hub.ucsb.edu>
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (07/14/90)
In article <5945@hub.ucsb.edu> aks@somewhere.ucsb.edu (Alan Stebbens) writes: >University pricing for the "base cube" is $4995. The 330 meg >version is $6995. This must be due to a recent price drop, since mine was bought direct from NeXT 1 year ago for $8500 (including 330 MB HD). So, it appears the price is falling at a rate of $1500/yr---not bad. Especially compared to the latest Mac prices, which have dropped drastically lately. The only thing coming close to the NeXT in functionality is the the MacIIfx, which, with 4MB Ram and 160MB HD costs $7250 at maximum academic discount---and that DOESN'T INCLUDE THE KEYBOARD, MONITOR OR VIDEO CARD. Add on at least another $1500 for something of comparable quality. (Not to mention you got no software with that, except Hypercard.) So, a Mac of ``similar'' (_half_ the RAM, _half_ the Hard Drive, no optical drive, no real software included) abilities costs at least $1800 more than a Cube!!! It seems people are paying quit a bit for that Mac software base. In fact, it'd pretty nearly be cost effective to get the $7000 Cube + a Mac SE/30 as a ``Mac software co-processor'' (basic Mac SE/30 is $1850 now). (Sorry to go on, but I've been pricing/evaluating Mac's for my little sister lately. Problem is, Apple has a lock on the Junior High and High Schools, which pressures kids to get some sort of Apple product for home.) Barry Merriman
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (07/17/90)
-------- In article <129@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU>, barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes... [...] >The only thing coming close to the NeXT in functionality is the >the MacIIfx, which, with 4MB Ram and 160MB HD costs $7250 at maximum >academic discount---and that DOESN'T INCLUDE THE KEYBOARD, MONITOR >OR VIDEO CARD. Add on at least another $1500 for something >of comparable quality. (Not to mention you got no software with that, >except Hypercard.) Nope. I'm not sure what you mean by "functionality", but the closest thing in speed is the IIci, which is considerably cheaper than the IIfx. The IIci has a 25Mhz 68030, just like the Next. The IIfx is 40 MHz, which is somewhat faster, no? Plus, the Mac at 25Mhz is probably somewhat faster than the Next, since it's not burdened with Mach and DPS. Then again, you get: no DSP chip, no 19 inch screen (although I do think the IIci has built in video), no development tools, and not much free software (although I suspect HyperCard would be of more use to the average user than Lisp, C or Mathematica, for example). Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
declan@portia.Stanford.EDU (Declan McCullagh) (07/17/90)
>In article <129@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU> barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) >writes... > >>The only thing coming close to the NeXT in functionality is the >>the MacIIfx, which, with 4MB Ram and 160MB HD costs $7250 at maximum >>academic discount---and that DOESN'T INCLUDE THE KEYBOARD, MONITOR >>OR VIDEO CARD. Add on at least another $1500 for something >>of comparable quality. (Not to mention you got no software with that, >>except Hypercard.) Robert (gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu) writes in reply... >I'm not sure what you mean by "functionality", but the closest thing in... I think Barry means that the Macintosh is a bit overpriced, an opinion that a good number of people would probably agree with. Functionality is a term that I remember applied to the Macintosh back when Apple zealots decried MS-DOS computer's "lack of functionality." Now it seems that similar arguments may apply against the Macintosh line... If you've ever used a Macintosh, you should know that functionality is in the eye of the beholder, and is very much an intangible concept. It perhaps refers to the "look and feel" of the computer, how responsive it is, how intuitive the interface is, how comfortable you feel using it, what software is included with it, and above all - what you can DO with it. On a hardware level, it may refer to the inherent features of a system, what hardware options it comes standard with, and how these features can enhance the computer. Using that rather broad definition, compare the IIci to the NeXT. >The IIci has a 25Mhz 68030, just like the Next. The IIfx is 40 MHz, which >is somewhat faster, no? Plus, the Mac at 25Mhz is probably somewhat faster >than the Next, since it's not burdened with Mach and DPS. In this case, as always, you must define what you mean by "faster." If you're talking in pure MIPS, you're not taking into account all the details of the computer's architecture. Or do you mean faster in user-interface response time and perceived speed? It's my understanding that the IIci's performance using the built-in video port drops considerably - to an effective speed of perhaps 20 MHz. Then consider the difference in the two architectures, Mach/Unix vs. Mac/OS, and finally remember the difference in throughput, especially the speed of the NextBus (and the DMA channels) vs. that of the Macintosh NuBus. Finally, consider included software and hardware... >Then again, you get: no DSP chip, no 19 inch screen (although I do think the >IIci has built in video), no development tools, and not much free software >(although I suspect HyperCard would be of more use to the average user than >Lisp, C or Mathematica, for example). You're right, you don't get a nice sized screen or a DSP on a competively priced Mac system... How much are optical disks for the Macintosh? About twice as much as they are for the NeXT. How much are DSP cards? About $2,000 to $3,000 dollars. How about an Ethernet card and an extra printer port? Another few hundred. HyperCard might be more useful than Lisp or C *to the average user*, but Mathematica is a very useful package if you have the manual (and a related book, _Programming_in_Mathematica_). Also, I'd imagine that the "average user" would get a great deal of use out of WriteNow, the Digital Librarian, Webster's, and Quotations... Finally, how much do you think a 68040 based Macintosh will be? With a 4 MB/80 MB IIfx system selling for $9,800 list, I'll guess that it will be well over $10,000 list. Of course, this is bordering on a religious war, and everyone has their own personal views on the subject... >Robert -Declan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Olympic Technologies / Registered NeXT Developers \ declan@portia.stanford.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (07/17/90)
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >-------- >barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes... >[...] >>The only thing [from Apple] coming close to the NeXT in functionality is the >>the MacIIfx, > > >Nope. I'm not sure what you mean by "functionality", but the closest thing in >speed is the IIci, which is considerably cheaper than the IIfx. True, the IIfx is 60% faster than the NeXT, but I was thinking of ``total, averaged functionality'', so the gain in speed made up for the many other deficits, in part. But, even though the IIci is much cheaper, the best academic discount model available here (UCLA) has only 4MB RAM and 80MB HD, for $5200. So, you need to add 4MB RAM (about $300) and a 180 MB HD ($1200 at academic discount---thats the biggest drive they offer here) to _approach_ the NeXT on memory capacity. This would bring the price up to $6700. Then, add $150 for the keyboard and $1100 for a 2 page display BW monitor (closest thing available here to the NeXT monitor) and your up to $7950. Pretty steep, for what you get---which, again, is primarily access to the Mac software base and GUI. If anyone ever makes a MacII board for the Cube (probably legally impossible?), I think Mac II* sales would vanish within a year. (Or, the price would drop by about a factor of 2.) Barry Merriman
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (07/17/90)
In article <132@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU>, barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: [...] > But, even though the IIci is much cheaper, the best academic > discount model available here (UCLA) has only 4MB RAM and 80MB HD, > for $5200. So, you need to add 4MB RAM (about $300) and a 180 MB HD > ($1200 at academic discount---thats the biggest drive they offer here) > to _approach_ the NeXT on memory capacity. This would bring the price > up to $6700. Then, add $150 for the keyboard and $1100 for a 2 page > display BW monitor (closest thing available here to the NeXT monitor) > and your up to $7950. Pretty steep, for what you get---which, again, > is primarily access to the Mac software base and GUI. This is not a useful comparison. Do you really believe adding a whole bunch of parts to a Mac will turn it into a NeXT? You don't need an 8M Mac with 260M hard disk to run Mac applications. If you are happy with Mac functionality, you can get a workable system for much less than the price of a NeXT. If you really need the features unique to a NeXT, you aren't going to buy a Mac. Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
jmann@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (Jim Mann) (07/20/90)
A Mac with 4 Meg of memory is about equivalent to a NeXT with 8 Meg so you don't have to add 4 Meg to the Mac to compare them. (By equivalent, I mean that you can open start several programs compfortable and switch back and forth with reasonable speed. Of course the Mac would do better with 8 Meg, but then the NeXT for some things really wants 12 or even 16 Meg). Jim