rgc@wam.umd.edu (Ross Garrett Cutler) (09/21/90)
Hello, I'm a student who has followed NeXT very closely. Their first computer was far too expensive for the average student (6K for an unusable, diskless station); when I heard rumors that they were going to try again for the student/educational market, I was again excited and eagerly awaited its debut. What I see is a step in the right direction, but Jobs has clearly not intended to sell this for personal student use. Here's what I mean... The educational price at UM is quite nice for a base NeXTstation: $3220, a price I can swallow. But that only comes with a 105 MB HD, with only a limited selection of software installed (e.g. C++ or none of the developer's stuff is there -- what good is that for a CS major?). True, you can get Mathematica on a 105, but to really do much, you need their 340 MB HD. And the price is...$4887!!! Over $1600 dollars for an extra 235 MB??? Come on...is the drive that much more expensive? I saw a 300 MB SCSI Micropolis for under $1600, so what's the deal? It could that NeXT is really discounting their low end computer (the 105 MB version), hoping to make more for the larger systems. But I thought it was Jobs' original goal to market toward a computer usable and afordable by students. Once again, it's too expensive for the average student (unless you don't intend to use NeXTStep, C++, ... -- all the stuff that makes the NeXT interesting to me). Any input would be most appretiated... -- Please email -- I'll summarize. Ross Cutler University of Maryland, College Park Internet: rgc@wam.umd.edu
barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) (09/21/90)
In article <1990Sep21.034515.29804@wam.umd.edu> rgc@wam.umd.edu (Ross Garrett Cutler) writes: > The educational price at UM is quite nice for a base NeXTstation: $3220, >a price I can swallow. But that only comes with a 105 MB HD, with only >a limited selection of software installed (e.g. C++ or none of the developer's >stuff is there -- what good is that for a CS major?). True, you can get >Mathematica on a 105, but to really do much, you need their 340 MB HD. Maybe so, but whats your option? A MAC SE/30 with 8 MB RAM and an 80MB drive will cost you the same, has less memory, speed, screen, and comes with _no_ bundled software to speak of. And if---being a CS major---you want a (pseudo) unix to go with that, AUX will cost you an extra $2k (!!!) or so. Anyway, NeXT will give you the other stuff on floppies, if you want it (just like back in the old days, before flopticals :-) -- Barry Merriman UCLA Dept. of Math UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet)
jmann@angmar.sw.stratus.com (Jim Mann) (09/21/90)
In article <386@kaos.MATH.UCLA.EDU>, barry@pico.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) writes: |>Maybe so, but whats your option? A MAC SE/30 with 8 MB RAM and an 80MB drive |>will cost you the same, has less memory, speed, screen, and comes with _no_ bundled |>software to speak of. And if---being a CS major---you want a (pseudo) unix |>to go with that, AUX will cost you an extra $2k (!!!) or so. This is ignoring reality, at least for most non-educational users. Most folks in the business world who work for a company that uses at least a couple of Macs get can Mac hardware at a hefty (30+ %) discount. Businessland, for example, extends their corporate discount on Apple products to all individuals who work for the company. You can bring the price even lower by shopping around for memory, disk, etc. (I'll even ignore the fact here that a Mac with 4 M of memory can generally run as many process windows, switch between processes, etc. as fast as a NeXT with 8 M.) Add to this software cost. Nobody pays full price for Mac software. Those who don't know much about where to buy go to their local store and get a 5-10% discount. Most people seem to know that you use MacConnection, MacWarehouse, etc., where you get a 40% or so discount. Don't get me wrong. I love my NeXT, and hope that more businesses make use of them. But as a personal computer? Unless you have money to burn, or unless you have to do something very specialized and don't have a choice, a Mac or a PC is still the way to go for most people. Jim Mann Stratus Computer jmann@es.stratus.com
bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (09/21/90)
From article <1990Sep21.034515.29804@wam.umd.edu>, by rgc@wam.umd.edu (Ross Garrett Cutler): > It could that NeXT is really discounting their low end computer (the > 105 MB version), hoping to make more for the larger systems. But I thought This is unsurprising and is a routine sales strategy that cuts across industries: give the basic system away and make the money on the extras. The auto industry comes to mind. Options packages are often worse pocketbook gougers than the basic car itself. -- Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu "Was all of this because I wore a big man's hat?"
north@Apple.COM (Don North) (09/22/90)
In article <3142@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >From article <1990Sep21.034515.29804@wam.umd.edu>, by rgc@wam.umd.edu (Ross Garrett Cutler): >> It could that NeXT is really discounting their low end computer (the >> 105 MB version), hoping to make more for the larger systems. But I thought > >This is unsurprising and is a routine sales strategy that cuts across >industries: give the basic system away and make the money on the extras. >The auto industry comes to mind. Options packages are often worse pocketbook >gougers than the basic car itself. It should be obvious why NeXT is pricing their new systems, especially at the low end, where they are - they are in SURVIVAL MODE. Believe me, when you analyze the COST (NOT end-user PRICE) of the components going into these boxes, they are selling them basically at break-even. The ONLY way that NeXT is going to make it to 1995 is to build market share NOW.
blenko-tom@cs.yale.edu (Tom Blenko) (09/22/90)
In article <45044@apple.Apple.COM> north@Apple.COM (Don North) writes: | |It should be obvious why NeXT is pricing their new systems, especially at |the low end, where they are - they are in SURVIVAL MODE. Believe me, when |you analyze the COST (NOT end-user PRICE) of the components going into |these boxes, they are selling them basically at break-even. The ONLY way |that NeXT is going to make it to 1995 is to build market share NOW. I can remember when Jobs came out with the Macintosh (for about the same price as the new NeXT, I note). This was after the Lisa flopped, and people said the very same thing -- he's running with a small margin and he's betting the company. Well, Apple's still around, selling Macintoshes and making lots money, and lots of people are glad of that. I took a serious look at getting a Mac over a year ago. Frustrated in all my attempts to find out anything concrete from Apple about A/UX. Even today, it looks expensive, $5K or $6K to buy a IIci that very well might not meet my performance needs, and back then it cost even more. So I decided that they didn't have what I wanted, what they had cost too much, and I wasn't going to buy anything. The price/performance of the NeXT machine is causing me to seriously reconsider. There are probably other people out there in the same situation. Doing a better job of giving people what they want is what business is about, and I think it will be interesting to see what competitive forces this move brings to bear on the market. Consumers like me are sure to be the winners. Tom
walters@grebyn.com (Chris Walters) (09/22/90)
In article <2406@lectroid.sw.stratus.com> jmann@angmar.sw.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes: > >Don't get me wrong. I love my NeXT, and hope that more businesses make >use of them. But as a personal computer? Unless you have money to burn, >or unless you have to do something very specialized and don't have a choice, >a Mac or a PC is still the way to go for most people. > I think you've got it backward... with all the bundled software you are VERY reasonably equipped for both business and personal computing. You have almost everything you need! Spreadsheets, WP, and DTP are not exactly specialized tasks in the business or home computing world anymore :-) > >Jim Mann >Stratus Computer >jmann@es.stratus.com -- Chris
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (09/23/90)
In article <45044@apple.Apple.COM> north@Apple.COM (Don North) writes:
It should be obvious why NeXT is pricing their new systems, especially at
the low end, where they are - they are in SURVIVAL MODE. Believe me, when
you analyze the COST (NOT end-user PRICE) of the components going into
these boxes, they are selling them basically at break-even. The ONLY way
that NeXT is going to make it to 1995 is to build market share NOW.
Yeah, so what. It just means we can get a great computer at a great
price. So what if the prices go up after a year. That just means
everyone should buy a NeXT before the prices do go up and the software
is no longer bundled.
-Mikelouie@sayshell.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) (09/23/90)
I replied the poster that started this thread by mail, but probably should have posted my response. In article <45044@apple.Apple.COM> north@Apple.COM (Don North) writes: >It should be obvious why NeXT is pricing their new systems, especially at >the low end, where they are - they are in SURVIVAL MODE. Believe me, when >you analyze the COST (NOT end-user PRICE) of the components going into >these boxes, they are selling them basically at break-even. The ONLY way >that NeXT is going to make it to 1995 is to build market share NOW. Ah yes, in typical USENET tradition folks have gone off the deep end trying to explain a relatively simple situation. The original poster that started this thread said something to the effect of "I can buy the 105MB NextStation from the University of Maryland Computer Store for $3220.00, but the 340MB NextStation costs $4887.00, why is this?" First of all, if you are going to compare company pricing policies, you should probably begin with the list prices unless you know the terms of the discounted prices being bandied about. In the case of the University of Maryland Computer Store, they placed an order for 50 105MB NextStations, and negotiated a better deal than the normal Educational Discount pricing. If you order the 340MB system, you're charged the "normal" educational price, which doesn't have the benifit of the bulk purchase negotiated discount. Not quite as sinister as it can be made to be, eh? Yeah, I've ordered a "SLAB" myself, in the 105MB configuration and am looking at external 300 to 600 MB drives. louie