kitten@hao.UUCP (09/22/85)
> In article <388@decwrl.UUCP> wasser@viking.DEC (John A. Wasser) writes: > > a consumer's question. How much more would I be asked to pay > > for a car because the manufacturer was required to install > > airbags that I don't want because I ALWAYS wear my seat belt. > > Several hundred dollars. Now, maybe there could be a "seatbelt customer" > option which would be cheaper? A "seatbelt customer" car would be intended > only for people who do use seatbelts, and would be a few hundred dollars > cheaper. And if belt-user cars get fewer injuries than bag-user cars, > maybe insurance rates will eventually be lower for belt-user cars. > > But it would be necessary to prevent someone who doesn't use > a seatbelt from buying one of those cars. So a "seatbelt customer" car > somehow must be undesirable for someone who doesn't use belts. But making > the car undesirable has to be cheaper than adding air bags to it. > > 1) A very bothersome replacement (fog horn for 5 minutes?) for the present > "seatbelt not fastened" buzzer/chime, and a smarter controller for it. > The combination should be more expensive to disable than the difference > between this option and airbag option... They did this in '74, and too many people complained. It was a starter interlock. On my sister's car, I remember what a hassle it was when the damn thing didn't work. What if someone was following her to her car? I know *I'd* want to get away fast. This is not the answer. > 2) Passive belts as a cheaper replacement to airbags. Passive belts don't > look as nice as airbags. But would that be enough inducement for people > to spend more for airbags? I doubt it. This, I believe, is the answer...I can't think of anything better to satisfy (almost) everyone than to have a choice of passive belts and airbags. Sure, the non-belters will grumble and whine at the cost of the airbag...perhaps it will be enough incentive for them to start belting. > 3) Penalties for people who buy a seatbelt car and then don't use them. > Now we're in the same field as the belt law discussion and insurance > benefit/penalty questions. One of the problems is proving whether > someone was using their belt... Scot E. Wilcoxon Something *like* this should be included in #2 above. Anyone caught with a disconnected passive belt should suffer a HEFTY penalty, and should count on their driving records as a moving violation. Passive belts should be connected in a way that disconneting could not be put back. My Ford has a bolt head for the seat belt that has a multi-point star shaped hole, requiring a 'special' tool, but it can be removed by a wrench, etc. Make this impossible, and the insurance people and cops can tell it was deliberately removed. I think Scot has some good ideas... {ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!noao | harpo!seismo | ihnp4!noao} !hao!kitten CSNET: kitten@NCAR ARPA: kitten%ncar@CSNET-RELAY
wcs@ho95e.UUCP (Bill.Stewart.4K435.x0705) (09/24/85)
(stuff about passive belts being a good thing, at least for stupid people who otherwise don't wear belts, and how they certainly beat airbags) > Something *like* this should be included in #2 above. Anyone caught with > a disconnected passive belt should suffer a HEFTY penalty, and should > count on their driving records as a moving violation. Passive belts > should be connected in a way that disconneting could not be put back. > My Ford has a bolt head for the seat belt that has a multi-point star > shaped hole, requiring a 'special' tool, but it can be removed by a > wrench, etc. Make this impossible, and the insurance people and cops > can tell it was deliberately removed. > {ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!noao | harpo!seismo | ihnp4!noao} > !hao!kitten > CSNET: kitten@NCAR ARPA: kitten%ncar@CSNET-RELAY NO NO NO NO NO! Have you ever tried to fix a broken seatbelt on a Ford? It's basically impossible. I eventually gave up and wore just the shoulder belt, since the lap belt was permanently jammed (no flames please; I know it's not a great arrangement.) (I also couldn't get my dealer to understand the idea that I wanted the seatbelt repaired.) New Jersey has a seatbelt law, of sorts - you have to wear it, but the police are only allowed to check for it if they pull you over because of your driving. Part of the motivation is to prevent charges of "harrassment" from people who might claim the police don't like them and are using seatbelt laws as an excuse for ticketing them. I personally feel that the police should be able to ticket anybody for not wearing seatbelts, and should be able to check them at tollbooths. The penalty should be simple, but direct - a small fine, but allow the insurance companies to charge double on the personal-injury-protection rates if you've had a seatbelt violation in the past n years (n=~=3). (Personal Injury Protection is part of NJ's so-called no-fault insurance.) We also have a law requiring children to be in car seats or seatbelts (depending on age), and it appears to be unenforced. THAT's something I think should carry heavy fines. -- ## Bill Stewart, AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ 1-201-949-0705 ihnp4!ho95c!wcs
draughn@iitcs.UUCP (Mark Draughn) (09/25/85)
[If nothing else, at least flame me so I know this is going out over the wire!] In article <1770@hao.UUCP> kitten@hao.UUCP writes: >> In article <388@decwrl.UUCP> wasser@viking.DEC (John A. Wasser) writes: (Discussion about how to make cars with airbags more attractive to people who don't wear seat belts. >> 2) Passive belts as a cheaper replacement to airbags. Passive belts don't >> look as nice as airbags. But would that be enough inducement for people >> to spend more for airbags? I doubt it. I don't know what "passive belts" are. I'm going to assume that they are those belts that automatically fall into place over your body when you close the door. I am also going to assume that they cannot be easily disconnected. I know such belts exist, and even if they aren't called "passive belts" I'm still going to flame them. AAAARRRGH! Did you ever think how unpleasant it is to ALWAYS be belted in? What do you do if you drop something on the floor on the passenger side. You have to get out of the car and walk around to the other side! Or what if you take a date to a drive-in movie. Even if you have nothing else in mind besides watching a movie, you're going to feel silly sitting there, belted in, in the middle of a parking lot. Mark Draughn
woods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods) (09/25/85)
> > 2) Passive belts as a cheaper replacement to airbags. Passive belts don't > > look as nice as airbags. But would that be enough inducement for people > > to spend more for airbags? I doubt it. > > This, I believe, is the answer...I can't think of anything better to satisfy > (almost) everyone than to have a choice of passive belts and airbags. Sure, > the non-belters will grumble and whine at the cost of the airbag...perhaps > it will be enough incentive for them to start belting. > I do not like passive belts. I ALWAYS use my seatbelts when driving. But, there ARE some times when I want to sit in or access my car when it is not moving, and I don't want the &%#@*! belts in my way. Have you ever tried to get your wallet out of your pocket, pay the person in the window, and collect your food from a drive-thru fast food place while wearing a seat belt? Have you ever tried to get something from the glove compartment without getting in the car in one equipped with passive belts? It's a HASSLE, and I don't want it imposed on me just because some OTHER people are bozos and don't use their belts. I ALWAYS use mine when the car is moving. > > 3) Penalties for people who buy a seatbelt car and then don't use them. > > Now we're in the same field as the belt law discussion and insurance > > benefit/penalty questions. One of the problems is proving whether > > someone was using their belt... Scot E. Wilcoxon > > Something *like* this should be included in #2 above. This I can agree with. The problem, of course, is as you stated: enforceability. The courts are ALREADY overcrowded with people suing each other over car accidents. All we need is a bunch of people trying to prove this other bozo wasn't wearing his belt, so I shouldn't be liable for his head injuries... We have to be realistic here. This is not a viable option. It is also a bad idea to have the government try to protect us from our own stupidity. First of all, it doesn't work, and second of all, more regulations cost more money to enforce and make the already overcomplicated task of buying and repairing cars even more so. We just have to ACCEPT the fact that some people are stupid and are going to continue to not wear their belts. > Anyone caught with > a disconnected passive belt should suffer a HEFTY penalty, and should > count on their driving records as a moving violation. I disagree with solving problems by throwing laws at them. It doesn't really work. It's treating the symptom instead of the disorder. Another thing it does is make criminals out of people who are basically good people. And for what? So one set of people can FORCE another set to adopt THEIR standards of what is safe. -- {ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!noao | harpo!seismo | ihnp4!noao} !hao!woods CSNET: woods@NCAR ARPA: woods%ncar@CSNET-RELAY "I don't know, but I've been told, it's hard to run with the weight of gold On the other hand I've heard it said, it's just as hard with the weight of lead"
john@gcc-bill.ARPA (John Allred) (09/30/85)
In article <1774@hao.UUCP> woods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods) writes: >> This, I believe, is the answer...I can't think of anything better to satisfy >> (almost) everyone than to have a choice of passive belts and airbags. Sure, >> the non-belters will grumble and whine at the cost of the airbag...perhaps >> it will be enough incentive for them to start belting. As has been mentioned before, passive belts are *dangerous*. You get into an accident, the doors spring open, and then you get thrown out of the car. If that happens, you are also probably dead. Sorry, but the above quote should not be attibuted to Greg Woods, but to whomever he was responding to. -- John Allred General Computer Company uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!john