crum@alicudi.usc.edu (Gary L. Crum) (09/20/90)
Important question (to me anyway): When a NeXTcube is eqipped with a NeXTdimension color board, can both the grayscale and color displays be used at the same time? If so, then does the NeXTstep window server do clipping at a low level so that one can drag windows from one display to the other? The press release says "to take advantage of NeXT's sound capabilities, NeXTdimension users need a Sound Box, a unit that integrates a speaker, a microphone, headphone jacks and RCA-style stereo output, plus keyboard and mouse interfaces." That implies that the user of the NeXTdimension color board (in a NeXTcube) uses only the color display and not the keyboard and mouse and Megapixel (grayscale) display that come with the NeXTcube. I would really like to see support for multiple displays per single user the way Macintosh systems support multiple displays. That would give NeXTstep/DPS another big technical advantage over the X Window System. (When X is used on multiple displays, e.g. on Suns, HPs and IBMs, the mouse cursor can be moved from one display to another, but windows cannot span multiple displays.) The PostScript interface should make this coordination even smoother than QuickDraw. (Can more than one NeXTdimension board be used in a NeXTcube?) Gary
garnett@cs.utexas.edu (John William Garnett) (09/20/90)
In article <CRUM.90Sep19101315@alicudi.usc.edu> crum@alicudi.usc.edu (Gary L. Crum) writes: >Important question (to me anyway): When a NeXTcube is eqipped with a >NeXTdimension color board, can both the grayscale and color displays >be used at the same time? If so, then does the NeXTstep window server >do clipping at a low level so that one can drag windows from one display >to the other? This question came up earlier today at a NeXT demo at UT Austin on 09/19/90. According to the NeXT rep, both the color and the non-color displays can be used at the same time. In fact, they can be set up to be part of the same "desktop" - that is, you can drag a window between displays. You can even configure the displays to act as if they were physically beside each other or above/below one another. >(Can more than one NeXTdimension board be used in a NeXTcube?) The NeXT rep. didn't say for certain but did imply that this might be available in the future. -- John Garnett University of Texas at Austin garnett@cs.utexas.edu Department of Computer Science Austin, Texas
davef@jessica.stanford.edu (David Finkelstein) (09/20/90)
In article <CRUM.90Sep19101315@alicudi.usc.edu> crum@alicudi.usc.edu (Gary L. Crum) writes: > >The press release says "to take advantage of NeXT's sound >capabilities, NeXTdimension users need a Sound Box, a unit that >integrates a speaker, a microphone, headphone jacks and RCA-style >stereo output, plus keyboard and mouse interfaces." My understanding is that the NeXTdimension board supports other monitors besides NeXT's Sony color monitor. So if you had 19" monitor you wanted to use, you could. In order to support other displays, NeXT kept the keyboard, sound, etc. inputs off the wires. This is why a Sound Box is needed; otherwise NeXT could have just brought everything over the monitor cable as before. David Finkelstein Academic Information Resources Stanford University
glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us (Glenn Reid) (09/20/90)
In article <CRUM.90Sep19101315@alicudi.usc.edu> crum@alicudi.usc.edu (Gary L. Crum) writes: >Important question (to me anyway): When a NeXTcube is eqipped with a >NeXTdimension color board, can both the grayscale and color displays >be used at the same time? If so, then does the NeXTstep window server >do clipping at a low level so that one can drag windows from one display >to the other? Yes. In fact, you can have a window that is half on one screen and half on the other, and it's 2-bit grayscale on one side and color on the other. There is even a little tool in Preferences that lets you decide what the spacial relationship is between the two monitors (i.e. is the color monitor to the left, to the right, or sitting above the grayscale monitor?) Glenn -- Glenn Reid RightBrain Software glenn@heaven.woodside.ca.us PostScript/NeXT developers ..{adobe,next}!heaven!glenn 415-851-1785
hunt@boulder.Colorado.EDU (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) (09/20/90)
In article <CRUM.90Sep19101315@alicudi.usc.edu> crum@alicudi.usc.edu (Gary L. Crum) writes: >Important question (to me anyway): When a NeXTcube is eqipped with a >NeXTdimension color board, can both the grayscale and color displays >be used at the same time? If so, then does the NeXTstep window server >do clipping at a low level so that one can drag windows from one display >to the other? > Better than that, I'd like to know if more the new 68040 board can coexist with the already good 68030 in the old cube. It seems that multiple processors in a NeXT would be a reasonable thing to do since the underlying OS is MACH, which is expressly designed for distributed processing (and also causes the NeXT to take a performance hit over the standard UNIX kernel model). > >Gary | --Lee | | Dave Haynie is Bob! | | hunt@spot.colorado.edu ...!ncar!boulder!spot!hunt |
wisdom@nano.cs.umn.edu (Scott Wisdom) (09/20/90)
Gary Writes: >Important question (to me anyway): When a NeXTcube is eqipped with a >NeXTdimension color board, can both the grayscale and color displays >be used at the same time? If so, then does the NeXTstep window server >do clipping at a low level so that one can drag windows from one display >to the other? Yes.. I played with a NeXTdimension with an additional grayscale monitor and was not surprised to find out they work together as one workspace. I dragged 32 bit photographic quality images from the color monitor to the grayscale monitor seamlessly (Wow! what a difference!). The windows on the color side are being handled by the i860, so dragging them is about as fast as dragging on the grayscale side. This is truly amazing - moving multi megabyte images around the screen at the same speed as an '030 graysc ale cube would move it's two bit windows!! What's also amazing is that a live video window can be moved around with no problem, and other windows can be PLACED ON TOP of the video window with full clipping - all while the video is chugging away - with no real degradation to the performance of the rest of the system. While you're watching the video, you can be running other applications on the color display at full blast (or near full blast - I didn't get a chance to really test this one, but it looks REALLY good!). Gary Writes: >The press release says "to take advantage of NeXT's sound >capabilities, NeXTdimension users need a Sound Box, a unit that >integrates a speaker, a microphone, headphone jacks and RCA-style >stereo output, <etc., etc., etc.> The sony color monitors do not come with speakers, keyboard connectors, etc. like the grayscale monitors do. If you have a color only display, the 'Sound Box' is what's used to provide this functionality. If you have a grayscale monitor as well, you don't have a need for this box. Gary Writes: >Can more than one NeXTdimension board be used in a NeXTcube? Hmm. Good question. One side note: the '040 machines are NICE. They are quick and responsive. Programs compile much faster, and DPS seems to be MUCH MUCH faster. I can't wait to upgrade my cube (which suddenly seems oh so slow). With 15,000 orders already taken, In addition to all the great technology they have introduced, NeXT is finally getting the serious momentum it deserves. 15,000 orders before the new system is even publicaly announced is a HUGE message of support that cannot be ignored by anyone. - Scott Wisdom Coda Music Software hacker (more now than ever) wisdom@heckle.cs.umn.edu
markad@blake.u.washington.edu (Mark Donnell) (09/20/90)
Yes it will support both mono and color 'heads' at the same time (according to our local NeXT folks). And you can have them side by side and drag a window from one to the other. The little box which they mentioned is only needed if you dont have one of their monitors - ie you get the color system with a third party monitor. Hope it helps Mark
clp@wjh12.harvard.edu (Charles L. Perkins) (09/24/90)
I asked someone "high up" in the NeXT hardware group, and they mentioned that you can have 4 (four!) display, a MegaPixel B&W and 3 NeXTdimension boards. The Preference Panel allows monitors in a 3 x 3 array, so four is no problem. Charles
izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (09/24/90)
In article <550@wjh12.harvard.edu> clp@wjh12.UUCP (Charles L. Perkins) writes: >I asked someone "high up" in the NeXT hardware group, and they mentioned > that you can have 4 (four!) display, a MegaPixel B&W and 3 NeXTdimension > boards. > >The Preference Panel allows monitors in a 3 x 3 array, so four is no problem. Can these NeXTdimensions boards synchronize H and V scans among themselves? (presumably by having one board serving as H & V sync master and others as slaves). How about LUTs (Color lookup tables)? Do they exists on NeXTdimension boards? Someone mentioned that DPS will not directly allow manipulations of LUTs, but whether the LUTs hardware exists or not is another question. Is there a technical documentation which describe these things? Also, someone was talking about the possility of using 3-rd party Color Monitors instead of NeXT Color Megapixel display. I suppose you could you a standard 64kHz (H) RGB monitors, but you will probably have to retune the V-hold because the NeXT displays operate at 68Hz frame rate, while most of other monitors are tuned for 60Hz frame rate. It's an easy adjustment, but in most cases, you will have to open the case of the monitors. Izumi Ohzawa, izumi@violet.berkeley.edu
rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) (09/25/90)
In article <1990Sep24.084343.3794@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >How about LUTs (Color lookup tables)? Do they exists on NeXTdimension >boards? Can you tell me what colors you want to look up that 24-bit color does not bring to a screen directly without a look-up? Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Bernhard Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@browncog.bitnet
izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (09/25/90)
In article <50958@brunix.UUCP> rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) writes: >In article <1990Sep24.084343.3794@agate.berkeley.edu> izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) writes: >>How about LUTs (Color lookup tables)? Do they exists on NeXTdimension >>boards? > >Can you tell me what colors you want to look up that 24-bit color does >not bring to a screen directly without a look-up? There are uses for LUTs even for 24-bit color systems. I suspect that most people associate LUT as a workaround to produce reasonable looking color image with 8-bit 256 color systems. That's not entirely correct. One thing LUT makes it easy is to do accurate color calibration to compensate for variations of RGB guns in the display and D/A converter gain imbalances. Any system boasting "true color" capability should be able to calibrate color accurately if the user wants to do it. I think Display PostScript is the wrong place to do this. Another thing LUT allows is LUT animation, the kind you might see in weather forecasts on TV where, e.g., jet stream snakes over the map of the continental US, represented as alternating stripe patterns. That kind of animation where image change must occur in non-rectangular area extending potentially the whole screen is next-to-impossible by bit-blitting to VRAMs. Even with NeXT's fast compositing by i860, I am not sure the NeXTdimension board can do it. Can it do compositing to the whole screen area within a ONE frame period (14msec), assuming you can do alternately map two separate VRAM areas to the displayed area (Large memory config. for NeXTdimension seems to allow this kind of use, where you can write into one frame while the other area is displayed.). AT&T, in the old TARGA board, made the same mistake of not putting LUTs on their board. Most of the old style true color systems such as ADAGE have LUTs, in fact that has TWO LUTs. Actually, if NeXTdimension board uses BrookTree RAMDAC, then it must have LUTs. Let's see the picture of the board... What do you say? Izumi Ohzawa, izumi@violet.berkeley.edu I am not sure if
madler@piglet.caltech.edu (Mark Adler) (09/25/90)
izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) wonders: >> Actually, if NeXTdimension board uses BrookTree RAMDAC, then >> it must have LUTs. Let's see the picture of the board... There is indeed a large PGA chip (same size as the i860) right next to the VRAM with the telltale Bt logo on it. Unfortunately the picture does not have the resolution to discern the numbers (maybe if I take it to JPL, they can enhance the image). I don't really see how a color map would fit into PostScript, but it must be available at a lower level for fine-tuning a monitor's color. Mark Adler madler@piglet.caltech.edu
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (09/26/90)
In article <50958@brunix.UUCP> rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) writes: >Can you tell me what colors you want to look up that 24-bit color does >not bring to a screen directly without a look-up? Apart from the points that other people have raised -- animation and color correction -- it is worth noting that 8 bits per color is not enough for some fussy applications like remote-sensing work. -- TCP/IP: handling tomorrow's loads today| Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology OSI: handling yesterday's loads someday| henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
wisdom@pico.cs.umn.edu (Scott Wisdom) (09/27/90)
>Another thing LUT allows is LUT animation, the kind you might see >in weather forecasts on TV where, e.g., jet stream snakes >over the map of the continental US, represented as alternating >stripe patterns. That kind of animation where image change >must occur in non-rectangular area extending potentially the whole >screen is next-to-impossible by bit-blitting to VRAMs. >Even with NeXT's fast compositing by i860, I am not sure >the NeXTdimension board can do it. Do not forget one of the (IMHO) best features of the NeXTdimension board - the real-time video compression! Not only would it be able to produce those images of snaking jet streams (albeit using a different method), it can/will combine the video compression with renderman (i860) or live video (video in) in ways that make multiple LUT's look like a childs toy... -Scott Wisdom wisdom@heckle.cs.umn.edu <-- PLEASE send responses here, unless they are flames(feel free to send those to the above address). CC for U of Minnesota Coda Music Software Hacker
edwardj@microsoft.UUCP (Edward JUNG) (09/28/90)
In article <1990Sep25.070212.15662@nntp-server.caltech.edu> madler@piglet.caltech.edu (Mark Adler) writes: > >izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) wonders: > >>> Actually, if NeXTdimension board uses BrookTree RAMDAC, then >>> it must have LUTs. Let's see the picture of the board... > >There is indeed a large PGA chip (same size as the i860) right next to >the VRAM with the telltale Bt logo on it. Unfortunately the picture >does not have the resolution to discern the numbers (maybe if I take >it to JPL, they can enhance the image). I don't really see how a color >map would fit into PostScript, but it must be available at a lower level >for fine-tuning a monitor's color. > >Mark Adler >madler@piglet.caltech.edu According to EE Times (issue 609), the chip is the Bt463 TrueVu RAMDAC from Brooktree, introduced at the August 1990 Siggraph conference. The RAMDAC is the "first to use different data conversion values and plane depths in different display windows on a monitor". The graphic support processor is Intel's i860. This chip has excellent graphics support, especially in 3-D graphics and Z-buffer manipulation, built-in the chip. It also boasts 64-bit data paths. The image compression chip is the CL550 from C-Cube Microsystems, that supports the Joint Photographic Experts Group's (JPEG) image compression standard (an evolving standard -- the second draft was released in July, and actually caused a rev in the CL chipset to CL-550B. I don't know which one will eventually ship in NeXTDimension, but images compressed with the older CL-550 need to be translated for the CL-550B). The 2.88MB floppy uses a "new high-density medium developed by NeXT and Toshiba Corp." All in all, very state of the art. -- Edward Jung Microsoft Corp. My opinions do not reflect any policy of my employer.
rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) (09/29/90)
In article <1990Sep25.171544.5774@zoo.toronto.edu>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: |> Apart from the points that other people have raised -- animation and color |> correction -- it is worth noting that 8 bits per color is not enough for |> some fussy applications like remote-sensing work. As far as I know PostScript internally works with arbitrary precise color values, regardless on how many colors you see on screen. As 24-bit color can produce more different colors than the human eye is able to differentiate, I think it does not make sense to use more colors for data repesentation of any kind, you won't see the difference. Internally you can however have as many colors as you like. CLUT-animation may by a nice toy, but it is a hack. Put in some more i860 if necessary and do REAL animation. However, if the NeXT is able to have real- time videos running from the hard-disk, it should be possible to animate what ever you want without CLUT-animation-hacks. For color calibration a CLUT is useful, and probably around, (after all NeXT is going after the DTP-market) but needs not be acessible for the general user. It suffices to have a device-driver level interface to it. --Ronald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Bernhard Shaw | rca@cs.brown.edu or antony@browncog.bitnet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
izumi@fugitive.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) (09/29/90)
In article <51552@brunix.UUCP> rca@cs.brown.edu (Ronald C.F. Antony) writes: > >CLUT-animation may by a nice toy, but it is a hack. Put in some more i860 if >necessary and do REAL animation. However, if the NeXT is able to have real- >time videos running from the hard-disk, it should be possible to animate what >ever you want without CLUT-animation-hacks. > There are certain thing you can't do. That's when hacks have to come in no matter how ugly they could be. The spec of the NeXTdimension board says that the i860's "full screen clear time" is 30 msec. That's TWO frames. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You just can't move 24(32)-bit deep Mega pixels around in less than a frame period. I don't think adding more i860's will help this, and they have to be on another board anyway. I know this is a hack. I wan't exactly expecting DPS to hanle CLUT animation. It will probably break it. I am, however, hoping that the low-level software allows us to sneak in a little program onto i860 to fiddle with CLUTs in a way which co-exists with DPS interpreter. Essentially, like the X windows system somebody announced recently on the net. I understand that most people wound not need to touch LUTs. And that's true for me too while I work with standard graphics programs such as TopDraw, Icon, etc. The board hardware is a damn good graphics system by itself. Especially at that price. Even a stupid IBM AT boards with TMS34020 can cost similarly. (1280x1024x24bits, non-interlaced). I was just drooling over the possibility of having the best of both worlds: Color DPS and Top-class graphics hardware. Even without Color DPS, it's a nice board. Izumi Ohzawa, izumi@violet.berkeley.edu