pvo@sapphire.OCE.ORST.EDU (Paul O'Neill) (09/25/90)
Remember alt.next? Remember magnesium fire extinguishers? We had our first contact with NeXT back in those days, before anyone knew that the cube *was* a cube. [We'd told NeXT we wanted to start a User's Group for a non-existent machine -- they sent some heavies out to talk with us!] Anyway, here's a comment from that original meeting you might find interesting. They were really interested in what the academic world wanted in a workstation. They were very open to any and all suggestions. Lots of notes were taken by them and by us. There was this warning, however: "There is only one religious issue at NeXT -- no floppy disk." What happened? Paul O'Neill pvo@oce.orst.edu DoD 000006 Coastal Imaging Lab OSU--Oceanography Corvallis, OR 97331 503-737-3251
news@MATH.UCLA.EDU (news) (09/25/90)
Keywords: From: barry@julia.math.ucla.edu (Barry Merriman) Path: julia!barry In article <20467@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> pvo@sapphire.OCE.ORST.EDU (Paul O'Neill) writes: > >Anyway, here's a comment from that original meeting you might find >interesting. They were really interested in what the academic world >wanted in a workstation. They were very open to any and all suggestions. > > "There is only one religious issue at NeXT -- no floppy disk." > After the machine became available, there were also numerous quotes of Steve saying "Its fair to say we bet the company on its [Optical Drive] success." Just be glad their flexible, I guess. Barry Merriman UCLA Dept. of Math UCLA Inst. for Fusion and Plasma Research barry@math.ucla.edu (Internet)
dd26+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas F. DeJulio) (09/25/90)
> "There is only one religious issue at NeXT -- no floppy disk."
Well, a floppy drive that holds almost 3 meg is something entirely
different than the 360k or 800k beasts that are often more common. It
can almost be considered something other than a floppy disk. It's
almost the moral equivalent of a foetal optical disk (rationalize,
rationalize).
--
Doug.deJ
dd26@andrew.cmu.eduflynn@cse.nd.edu (Patrick J. Flynn) (09/25/90)
In article <20467@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> pvo@sapphire.OCE.ORST.EDU nostalgizes: >Remember alt.next? >Remember magnesium fire extinguishers? > > "There is only one religious issue at NeXT -- no floppy disk." > >What happened? Reality struck. They don't seem willing to drop the OD concept entirely, but it's clearly less important (now) than getting CHEAP machines OUT THERE. Either OD prices haven't fallen to a level which makes them the medium of choice for the low-end market, OR access times are still higher than those attainable with hard disks, OR capacities haven't doubled like everyone expected them to (how many of you heard the rumour that the next NeXT would have a 512M optical with 16ms access time?). Coupled with the precipitous drop in the prices of hard disks, it looked like the optical no longer had the `edge'. Perhaps the notorious optical-drive problems scared them a little. Another buzzword I picked up in the prerelease presentations is `interoperability.' If they want to penetrate the business arena, NOT ONLY do they need great software (will Improv do?), they have to coexist with what's already out there: PCs and Macs. The floppy drive gives the new slabs and cubes the capability to read PC and Mac floppies. Someone has already developed a PC emulator for the machine (egad). This is a somewhat more sophisticated approach to the business market than the Businessland deal, in which no attempt was made to interoperate. I think it's also important to point out that the pricing structure for the original cubes had a tendency to anger business customers, who had to pay a premium for their machines by buying them through B-land. Here's a box that your kid at Moo U can buy for $6500 through the University. If you wind up liking it enough to buy one for yourself, too bad- you gotta go to Businessland and pay an extra $3500 (unless you're going to buy several hundred boxes, in which case you can negotiate directly with NeXT). I was told that NeXT is taking the Apple route in future pricing: -Announced prices are retail. -Academic discounts are negotiated on a case-by-case basis with interested schools. The more the school *promises* to buy (for its use or for resale), the better the deal it can get. That way, Joe Businessman isn't slapped in the face by the markup. It's still there, of course ;-), but it's not as blatant. Business is now a legitimate market for NeXT rather than an afterthought. Nope, I'm not NeXT-bashing. I think they made some mistakes early on, identified them, and are making a good effort at remedying them. Disclaimer: my opinions. -- Patrick J. Flynn, Computer Science & Engineering, University of Notre Dame flynn@cse.nd.edu <--- best flynn@cps.msu.edu <--- still works
jmann@angmar.sw.stratus.com (Jim Mann) (09/25/90)
In article <448@news.nd.edu>, flynn@cse.nd.edu (Patrick J. Flynn) writes: |>They don't seem willing to drop the OD concept entirely, but it's |>clearly less important (now) than getting CHEAP machines OUT THERE. |>Either OD prices haven't fallen to a level which makes them the medium |>of choice for the low-end market, OR access times are still higher than |>those attainable with hard disks, OR capacities haven't doubled like |>everyone expected them to (how many of you heard the rumour that the |>next NeXT would have a 512M optical with 16ms access time?). Coupled |>with the precipitous drop in the prices of hard disks, it looked like |>the optical no longer had the `edge'. Perhaps the notorious |>optical-drive problems scared them a little. |> I don't think the price of ODs can EVER drop enough to completely replace floppy disks. If I have something that I want to send to a few friends, I'm quite willing to put it on floppies (cost $0.30 to $1.00 each) and send it off to them. Even if optical disks dropped down to say $20, I would not be willing to just use them to pass information to friends. It's too much of an investment. They're great when you need that much data, but expensive overkill when you just want to transfer a few hundred K or even a Meg or two. Jim Mann Stratus Computer jmann@es.stratus.com
jmunkki@hila.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (09/26/90)
<2444@lectroid.sw.stratus.com> jmann@angmar.sw.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes: >I don't think the price of ODs can EVER drop enough to completely replace >floppy disks. If I have something that I want to send to a few friends, >I'm quite willing to put it on floppies (cost $0.30 to $1.00 each) and send >it off to them. Even if optical disks dropped down to say $20, I would not >be willing to just use them to pass information to friends. It's too >much of an investment. They're great when you need that much data, but >expensive overkill when you just want to transfer a few hundred K or >even a Meg or two. Let's go back 15 years to the time when 8" floppy disks were new... I bet that there were people saying: "I don't think that the price of floppy disks can ever drop enough to completely replace paper tape (or magnetic tape). If I have something that I want to send to a few friends, ... They're great when you need that much data, but expensive overkill when you just want to transfer a few kB or even 200 kB." As long as our files grow faster than the space or our floppy disks, we'll need new methods of storing data. I think optical disks will be widely used, but they might face competition from users who prefer a large fixed disk and a DAT recorder for backup. This is probably the wrong newsgroup, but: Just think of the possibilities of a DAT recorder: it has stereo 48kHz (16 bit?) sampling and output and probably houses a signal processor. All you need to do is add some buffer memory (let's use those 256kB SIMMs that are lying around and give it 1MB now and expand to 4MB when 1MB SIMMs are are obsolete) and you have a sound subsystem for your computer. It also works as a backup media and tapes are easy to send to friends. This setup allows you to make copies of DAT tapes with just a computer and one DAT player. The memory can be used as a buffer so that you have a delay in the recording. With enough memory, you have from a few seconds to a minute or so to insert a tape and start recording from a radio broadcast. Optical disks have the advantage of being random access media, but some users will be able to manage by using a hard disk as a cache to the DAT tape. Of course you could use a combination of OD and DAT. ____________________________________________________________________________ / Juri Munkki / Helsinki University of Technology / Wind / Project / / jmunkki@hut.fi / Computing Center Macintosh Support / Surf / STORM / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (09/26/90)
In article <2444@lectroid.sw.stratus.com> jmann@angmar.sw.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
I don't think the price of ODs can EVER drop enough to completely replace
floppy disks. If I have something that I want to send to a few friends,
I'm quite willing to put it on floppies (cost $0.30 to $1.00 each) and send
it off to them. Even if optical disks dropped down to say $20, I would not
be willing to just use them to pass information to friends. It's too
much of an investment. They're great when you need that much data, but
expensive overkill when you just want to transfer a few hundred K or
even a Meg or two.
Jim Mann
Stratus Computer
jmann@es.stratus.com
How about Digital Audio Tape? They're about to hit the music
industry. They should drop in price after a few million DAT cassettes
of Van Halen are sold. Each tape holds about a gigabyte of data. I
would say that they will be the perfect medium for software
distribution in another year.
-Mikewirehead@oxy.edu (David J. Harr) (09/26/90)
jmann@angmar.sw.stratus.com says >I don't think the price of ODs can EVER drop enough to completely replace >floppy disks... This is probably true for the magneto optical drive types that the NeXT machine uses. However, there is an optical medium that is cheap enough to completely replace floppies for the distribution of software. Of course, I am talking about CD-ROM. I realize that the current OD mechanisms cannot read CD-ROM disks, but it might solve a lot of problems if they could. In the last little while, Apple has begun giving people the option of buying their software on CD-ROM instead of floppies, and the CD-ROM version is usually signifigantly cheaper. I asked someone at Apple why they were pushing CD-ROM so hard and they told me that if they had to send out a package with two or more floppies, it was cheaper to just use CD-ROM, because the media cost less. If we could just encourage the folks at NeXT to work the ability to read CD-ROM into the OD, we could solve all the software distribution problems permanently (and CD-ROMs never get bad sectors...). Just another lunatic opinion from the warped brain of wirehead@oxy.edu. Don't call us, we'll call you.
minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (09/27/90)
|> I don't think the price of ODs can EVER drop enough to completely replace |> floppy disks. If I have something that I want to send to a few friends, |> I'm quite willing to put it on floppies (cost $0.30 to $1.00 each) and send |> it off to them. [...] |> | How about Digital Audio Tape? They're about to hit the music | industry. They should drop in price after a few million DAT cassettes | of Van Halen are sold. Each tape holds about a gigabyte of data. I | would say that they will be the perfect medium for software | distribution in another year. But floppies fit nicely into envelopes... For up to a meg or so, floppies would stil be the way to go. Also, floppies are a bit better for random access. -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| A fanatic is one who sticks to |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | his guns -- whether they are | U | - Ackphtth | loaded or not.
eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (09/27/90)
In article <Fz09a-a2@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >How about Digital Audio Tape? They're about to hit the music >industry. They should drop in price after a few million DAT cassettes >of Van Halen are sold. Each tape holds about a gigabyte of data. I >would say that they will be the perfect medium for software >distribution in another year. Our Digital Audio expert says that there's this one little problem with DAT--the head assembly is only good for 1000 hours of use, and costs $400 to replace (mind you that retail on a new consumer DAT machine is around $700). I think we'll stick with our 8mm Exabytes for a while, thank you. -=EPS=-
pvo@sapphire.OCE.ORST.EDU (Paul O'Neill) (09/27/90)
In article <20467@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> I wrote: > > "There is only one religious issue at NeXT -- no floppy disk." > Funny how this turned into a discussion of the viability of the OD and other storage mediums. My impression at that time was that NeXT's were going to academia and the vast majority would be on the Internet. Who needs a floppy when you're on the net? It seemed that if there was a basis for this "religious" issue it was the machine's networking focus, not it's OD focus. Paul O'Neill pvo@oce.orst.edu DoD 000006 Coastal Imaging Lab OSU--Oceanography Corvallis, OR 97331 503-737-3251
jwishnie@reed.UUCP (Jeff Wishnie) (09/28/90)
One note on Patrick Flynn's posting. He writes that the new NeXT's can read and write PC and Mac disks. That's only half correct. They can only read and write PC formatted disks. Of course since all new Macs can also read and write PC disks, there is no problem moving files between Macs and NeXTs, the files just have to be saved on a PC formatted floppy. ------------------------------ Disclaimer: no one is responsible for what I say. ------------------------------ Jeff Wishnie
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (09/29/90)
In article <872@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes:
Our Digital Audio expert says that there's this one little
problem with DAT--the head assembly is only good for 1000 hours
of use, and costs $400 to replace (mind you that retail on a new
consumer DAT machine is around $700). I think we'll stick with
our 8mm Exabytes for a while, thank you.
-=EPS=-
Isn't Sony about to release DAT here in America? I don't think it
will be a commercial success if that is all the longer the head
assembly will last; consumers won't tolerate it. CD players used to be
expensive too. The prices of DAT players will drop after the 2nd
generation machines are released. 40 (times $4.00) disks or 1 DAT
cassette(around $10)?
-Mikephilip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (09/30/90)
In article <Fu.d=ud2@cs.psu.edu>, melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: |> In article <872@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: |> Our Digital Audio expert says that there's this one little |> problem with DAT--the head assembly is only good for 1000 hours |> of use, and costs $400 to replace (mind you that retail on a new |> consumer DAT machine is around $700). I think we'll stick with |> our 8mm Exabytes for a while, thank you. |> Isn't Sony about to release DAT here in America? I don't think it |> will be a commercial success if that is all the longer the head |> assembly will last; consumers won't tolerate it. CD players used to be |> expensive too. The prices of DAT players will drop after the 2nd |> generation machines are released. 40 (times $4.00) disks or 1 DAT |> cassette(around $10)? |> The Sony machine is already around for under $800. I wouldn't write off the 1000 hours figure. I've seen Sony CD players with a skipping problem after around 18 months. If they're played for an average of 2 hours a day, this is about 1000 hours... -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
mmeyer@next.com (Morris Meyer) (10/02/90)
In article <Fu.d=ud2@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Isn't Sony about to release DAT here in America? I don't think it >will be a commercial success if that is all the longer the head >assembly will last; consumers won't tolerate it. CD players used to be >expensive too. The prices of DAT players will drop after the 2nd >generation machines are released. 40 (times $4.00) disks or 1 DAT >cassette(around $10)? > >-Mike Granted once DAT players take off the internals of a DAT player will start to drop in price. That however does not account for the front end electonics required to make a solid backup solution. The Exabyte 8mm tape drives go to incredible amounts of effort to get hard error rates down to 1e-13 (*). They put a 500 byte error correction section at the end of each 1000 byte segment of data. In doing so, they can correct hundreds of one and two bit errors, as well as completely correct a 200 bit long burst error. All of this costs money. morris meyer (mmeyer@next.com) software engineer NeXT OS Group * - Figures quoted from memory...might be off somewhat.
scott@NIC.GAC.EDU (10/03/90)
mmeyer@next.com (Morris Meyer) writes (in reply to message about new DATs): Granted once DAT players take off the internals of a DAT player will start to drop in price. That however does not account for the front end electonics required to make a solid backup solution. The Exabyte 8mm tape drives go to incredible amounts of effort to get hard error rates down to 1e-13 (*). They put a 500 byte error correction section at the end of each 1000 byte segment of data. In doing so, they can correct hundreds of one and two bit errors, as well as completely correct a 200 bit long burst error. All of this costs money. We could just use the same basic electronics CD players and OD drives use now, right? Because they already have something like this, no? Well, at least WORMs are supposed to, using Solomon-Reed codes, I believe. About 50% overhead for ECC. scott hess scott@gac.edu Independent NeXT Developer (Stuart) NeXT Campus Consultant (Not much, really) GAC Undergrad (Horrid. Simply Horrid. I mean the work!)